What happens if you have an action that lowers your DX on your turn?

[Nils_Lindeberg]

Originally Posted by RobW

So Nils do you feel the rules are clear that adjDX penalties for range affect order and possibility of second bow shot?

Second bow shot comes last in the turn, just as charging polearms comes first. But if there are several attacks first or last they come in adjDX order. So first shot should come on adjDX excluding any DX modifiers for distance [edited this, RAW seems clear two mentions for it and one against it], but all else counts, and the second if it is allowed by the first being good enough, will come last or among the last if there are several and if so in another adjDX order.

At least that is my take on it RAW.

And the first part of the question. Yes according to RAW I can see no difference between adjDX and adjDX. The same goes for a Fencer that picks up a shield so he can't use fencing, but in the middle of the fight he gets to hit someone in the back and his adjDX goes up, and he can use Fencing again. The guy turns to face him, so back to no Fencing. He drops his shield and he is back being able to use Fencing again. Same goes for turn order and for the ability to take a second shot.

The only special rule mentioned that deviate from current adjDX are Polearm charges (comes first), Second bowshots(comes last), and missile attacks that doesn't take range into account[Iffy rule but RAW as far as I can judge] and when your adjDX increases but your count down phase has passed (your opponent might have been knocked prone for example) you don't miss your turn, but you get to take it immediately and at your current adjDX.

Second attack for Two Weapon Fighting is something that needs to be clarified, but I think it will be grouped with the second bow shots for simplicity. I wouldn't mind the possibility of a third or fourth shot (there are some really fast shooters out there and it would be historically correct for weaker bows), and then we could have a post last turn even and a post, post last turn event. :-)

And no, we don't use these rules when we run a homebrew campaign, DX count down is old school and should be optional. The base rule should be current adjDX at the start of the turn so initiative order can be written down. And even SJ seems to have thought so back in the day since the Delayed Action is a little bit of a hint and left as an optional rule even though you can get around it with RAW.

[Jim Kane]

*Food for thought* until you get your official answer from SJ:

Consider that in TFT:ITL, under Dexterity, on page 8, we read:

DEXTERITY (DX) governs:(1) The order in which figures act each turn after movement. (2) how likely a figure is to successfully cast a spell, hit an enemy with a physical attack, etc.

As these two concepts are presented as separated concepts, in separate sentences - as opposed to two concepts co-joined in a single sentence by the conjunctive logical connective: "and" - and therefore, one could therefore consider *When you act*, and *Accuracy of attack* as mutually exclusive situations when refereeing DX function.

The main problem for some is in determining when a factor:

A) *slows* a figure down, and

B) when a factor affects *accuracy*; and

C) when a factor affects *both*.


Also, we can consider the in TFT:AM, under Attacks, on pages 6-7, we read:

"The second exception has to do with archers with such a high DX that they fire two arrows per turn. The first arrow is fired at the normal time - that is, when the archer's turn comes according to adjDX. (Don't count range to the target when deciding when his turn comes)... etc."

This rule specifically presents the *when* and the *accuracy* as being mutually exclusive in this paragraph - but is it limited to this situation only, or all two-attack situations? Some GMs could say "yes", others, "No".

The rule goes on state:

the second arrow is fired AFTER all other attacks have been made. If more than one archer gets a second shot, the second shots all come at the end of the turn, again in order of the archers adjDX.

And there are of course other citations, from other combat situations, we should cross-reference - why not see if you can find them too.

JK

PS- When you mentioned *Wild Swings*, are you talking about *Sweeping Blows* as found on TFT:AM page 26, or something else?

[RobW]

AdjDX affecting everything is simplest. As I say I'm not sure why we treated range differently. Weird.

To be consistent if firing at a distant target and then needing to roll against adjDX for other purpose, e.g. Trip spell, then target range makes it more likely you fall. Not unreasonable I guess.

[RobW]

Thanks JK, food for thought (our replies crossed). Maybe we weren't so crazy!

I suppose part of me prefers a clean break, dx mods affect both when and how accurately you act.

[JLV]

I always read it the same way Nils does. It was just easier to do it that way, and it prevented a lot of arguments. Plus, I thought the rules were pretty clear on, for example, second bow shots during a turn (always at the end of the turn, regardless of AdjDX).

[flankspeed]

Please forgive me if someone already mentioned this, but the Advanced Melee rules state the following on page 9:

"Attacks come off in order of adjDX counting everything BUT missile and thrown weapon range; a distant target makes you less accurate but no slower."

I think there could be other DX adjustments that make you "less accurate but no slower," but this is getting into house rules or situations that require the GM to make a judgment call.

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by flankspeed

... "Attacks come off in order of adjDX counting everything BUT missile and thrown weapon range; a distant target makes you less accurate but no slower." ...

Hi Flankspeed, everyone.
In my campaign, I use this rule. It is the only exception to the DX adjustments affects the time when you attack. That said, I always disliked it. Things would be simpler if all DX adjustments worked the same way.

Warm regards, Rick.

[flankspeed]

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

Hi Flankspeed, everyone.
In my campaign, I use this rule. It is the only exception to the DX adjustments affects the time when you attack. That said, I always disliked it. Things would be simpler if all DX adjustments worked the same way.

Warm regards, Rick.

My mind also wanted consistency, but I think my house rule went to the opposite extreme. Only armor, shields, magic items or spells affecting DX, and reactions to wounds would change your order during the turn. Any range penalties, aimed shots, flanking bonuses, etc. only affected accuracy, not speed.

I found this the easiest to adjudicate and simplest to execute. Whatever DX you started the turn with (counting armor, shields, magic, and wounds) would be your place in the order for the entire turn. For example, if you suddenly had the chance to make a flank attack on someone, it would not bump you up in the turn order but merely give you a better chance of hitting.

I think this comes from playing so many games where penalties to hit were completely separate from adjustments to speed. If I recall correctly, a "fast as greased lightning" gunslinger in Boot Hill could fast draw his six-shooter and fan fire multiple times at a penalty to hit, but at least his initial shot would still come off first because of his speed score even if maybe the second and third came off slightly later. My memory is hazy, but even D&D separated initiative order from hit bonuses.

To each their own. My guiding principle is to play the game in whatever way maximizes fun for your group.

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by flankspeed

Please forgive me if someone already mentioned this, but the Advanced Melee rules state the following on page 9:

"Attacks come off in order of adjDX counting everything BUT missile and thrown weapon range; a distant target makes you less accurate but no slower."

I think there could be other DX adjustments that make you "less accurate but no slower," but this is getting into house rules or situations that require the GM to make a judgment call.

And there you go.

Providing Citations and then discussing the concept contained within the cited rule really is the best way to take-on these questions; as we are then evaluating *facts* (if one considers the raw as the equivalent of a fact), as opposed to arguing personal opinion.

Seeking solutions, driven by documenting facts - that's what I like.

So often we can find and document the accurate answer with just a bit of research and proper cross-referencing.

Nice citation Flankspeed.

JK

PS - However, *IF* you ultimately choose to follow the RAW, *that* is left entirely up to you.

Originally Posted by RobW

AdjDX affecting everything is simplest. As I say I'm not sure why we treated range differently. Weird.

To be consistent if firing at a distant target and then needing to roll against adjDX for other purpose, e.g. Trip spell, then target range makes it more likely you fall. Not unreasonable I guess.

Hi RobW - The easy explanation is that the distance from the arrow tip to the target does not affect when you can release the bow-string.

JK

[flankspeed]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

And there you go....

Nice citation Flankspeed.

JK

PS - However, *IF* you ultimately choose to follow the RAW, is left entirely up to you.

Thanks, JK! Upon reflection, I realized that I was not following RAW. As I stated in my previous post:

"My mind also wanted consistency, but I think my house rule went to the opposite extreme. Only armor, shields, magic items or spells affecting DX, and reactions to wounds would change your order during the turn. Any range penalties, aimed shots, flanking bonuses, etc. only affected accuracy, not speed.

"I found this the easiest to adjudicate and simplest to execute. Whatever DX you started the turn with (counting armor, shields, magic, and wounds) would be your place in the order for the entire turn. For example, if you suddenly had the chance to make a flank attack on someone, it would not bump you up in the turn order but merely give you a better chance of hitting."

So while I am quick to quote the rules, I don't always abide by them!