Reactions to the new staff spells

[JLV]

In the early game, the Wizards and Warriors are fairly evenly balanced, but as the characters improve (at least under Classic TFT -- we'll have to see if this remains true under the revised rules in the Legacy edition), the Wizards quickly outstrip the Warriors. As an experiment, create yourself a 40 point Wizard and pit him against a 40 point Warrior. The results are fairly enlightening -- especially if the Wizard has some room to maneuver. Which is why I tend to look askance at anything that gives a Wizard a major and permanent boost in power without some kind of offsetting penalty; it might be okay early on, but it will just get worse and worse as the Wizard grows in power.

[JLV]

I just saw the news over on the web site. I thought this was some kind of proposal someone had come up with, not an actual rule in the book.

Good God! This staff stuff is WAY overpowered in my opinion. Wizards will become nearly invincible unless they are mobbed by a mass of fairly high-point warriors!

Why would anyone play anything other than a Wizard under these new staff rules?

[flankspeed]

There ought to be a game mechanic to balance wizards who use a staff in order to gain all the advantages thereof versus mages who prefer a hands-free approach, be it merely because they enjoy the “Dr. Strange” hand gestures or they would rather use a regular weapon as a spellsword-type character.

It is even conceivable that depriving a wizard of such a powerful item they’ve invested their essence into creating should actively disadvantage the character in some way besides merely losing the staff functions. Gandalf breaking Saruman’s staff would be a literary example.

For example, if wizards create a staff or wand or some other focus, they would gain its benefits, but not only do they lose those benefits if they lose their staff, they suffer at least -2 DX/IQ or more to cast spells empty-handed until they can either create a new item or somehow “forget” the Staff spell and render themselves free of needing such a focus.

The sorceror who casts barehanded and has never learned the Staff spell and never created such an arcane focus would, of course, gain no inherent bonus for lacking such an item (other than potential weapon usage in a free hand perhaps), but also would have no inherent weakness for lacking such a focus.

Thus if a party of adventurers were to be captured alive, you might have the Staff-wielding wizard being chided by their bare-handed sorceror buddy who can still cast unimpeded until they escape and recover their gear.

Just a thought to make TFT provide mechanical reasons for or against Staff usage, since there seems to be no reason right now not to make such a powerful item.

Also, I think Staff immunity to breakage and droppage should perhaps be limited to not breaking/dropping on a critical failure roll. A case could be made that a more powerful wizard can break another wizard’s staff or force them to drop it. I know that is probably never going to be in the official rules, but this can still be food for thought on house rules, especially in Middle Earth. ;)

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by Dave Crowell

It is now in the rules "If anyone other than the owner of a staff picks it up against the owner’s will, it explodes, doing the fool who touched it 3 dice damage."

It was always 4d6. When did we lose a whole die of damage? And why?

JK

[Wayne]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

It was always 4d6. When did we lose a whole die of damage? And why?
JK

If anyone other than the owner of a staff picks it up against his will, it explodes, doing the fool who touched it 3 dice damage.
This is what it says in my copy of Wizard (1978).

[Jim Kane]

Wow,... correct you are Wayne! I wonder how we (I) got it to 4d6... Mea Cupa!!! "Oops! it seems I might owe some players their characters back... " LOL!

JK

[zot]

Originally Posted by JLV

Good God! This staff stuff is WAY overpowered in my opinion. Wizards will become nearly invincible unless they are mobbed by a mass of fairly high-point warriors!

I had a similar problem with the Village Wise One's "Wither" talisman ability (which I'll bring back as a one-shot thing). Skarg wrote some illustrative text-walls and I heeded his advice and nerfed it.

I think the new 5-level Staff spells have a neat premise but should be adjusted, power-wise.

It's important to remember that these are posts, not entries in the rule book.

[Wayne]

Originally Posted by zot

It's important to remember that these are posts, not entries in the rule book.

It wasn't posted on forum but on TFT home page, so my feeling is that that's the rule.

[JLV]

Alas, I think Wayne has it right. This wasn't floated as an "idea"; it was published as a thing. Maybe if Steve sees some of the comment here he'll rethink it and nerf it, but I think we're getting closer and closer to the "good idea cut-off point" here and that ship may have already sailed...

I sure hope he dials it back some, though.

[zot]

Originally Posted by Wayne

It wasn't posted on forum but on TFT home page, so my feeling is that that's the rule.

This article on the main website says the staff rules are still in flux and Steve hasn't said that the rules are no longer in flux. So if we're going to say, "what's published on the main site is canon", then the staff rules are still in flux.

The Mana Staff depends on rules that haven't been released or possibly even finalized yet, "See Mana and the Wizard’s Staff, p. 00" seems to be a reference to this section of the "Experience Points" thread. The first version in the thread said mana cost 100 XP per point and the most recent one says it costs 200 XP per point, as the Staff spell article also says. There's small reason to believe 200 XP is a final figure unless Steve says it is, which he hasn't.

It's good to play with these things to try them out but since we don't even know what the new XP system is (Steve has two competing proposals out so far and Guy has another one), it's impossible to play with the "rules as written" because they aren't all written (according to public knowledge, anyway).

The new TFT is far from set in stone. Website articles are easy to revise. Even when the PDFs come out, they can be tweaked and reuploaded. Printing is a much larger commitment but even then, there are erratas. Even after erratas, further editions can revise rules.