Driving Default: Yesterday I reality-checked it . . .

[Þorkell]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

A question to some other posters: why do I have an impression that you treat non-computerized controls as some sort of esoteric, 'pros only' category?

Most of the posters are Americans, and cars with automatic transmissions are by far more common there.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Þorkell

Most of the posters are Americans, and cars with automatic transmissions are by far more common there.

Automatic transmissions with mechanical linkages are far more common here. Computerized drive-by-wire systems are only in the last few years of production automobiles (and come in "manual" versions too, btw).

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I just note that based on the RAW, Driving at DX-5 does not mean that you'll be able to handle a lot of typical situations which may crop up over years of driving. Driving at DX-1 or DX would be closer, but even so, it's not unreasonable to expect that given enough time, even a driver who was not paid for driving would reach DX+1 or DX+2. All he needs are fairly regular changes in weather, a lot of different kinds of roads, etc.

In short, variety. Which is a lot more typical than 'every single day the same', even though people would like the latter better.

Sure, but doing the same drive over and over gives you additional bonuses above and beyond the standard TDM for the task.

Besides, how long does that variety training last? one minute? two?, add that up and you get a couple of hours of training per year, about a point after 10 years, if that.

We have a saying here in the US where we called people doing really stupid stuff "Sunday Drivers", these days we are starting to call them "ZipCar Drivers".

We have over 200 million licensed drivers, 20% of them are "ZipCar/Sunday Drivers" with no familiarity bonuses, it's easy enough seeing another 60 million drivers on default and as minor dabblers, this then gives us close to 100 million drivers who are serious dabblers or who have some skill, and a couple of million drivers with actually serious professional driving skill.

[Hannes665]

I must agree with Icelander on the point that most drivers have DX-1 or so.

For example here in Iceland you must take 17 hour of training driving before you get your license and most (since 1998 or so) get a 1 year of extra training with adult supervision. We learn to drive Stick/Manual from day one, automatic is something we dont even bother teaching since it´s rather simple compared to stick.

I have driven in the US, Iceland and various countries in Europe. Most roads in the US are very friendly, large, easy to navigate and with good surface. So can be said about highways in Europe. I would go as far as granting +4 for US highways and European Highways.

In Iceland I would claim -1 for anyone not used to the roads, they are mostly 1 lane highways and some have not that great surface. Here we must train and learn to drive on what would only be described off-road tracks in the US as part off our regular training.

Commuting in Reykjavik is like anywhere else in the western world but when traveling outside of the city (and few places near the capital) things change.

Most foreigner that I know and have driven around Iceland (and I know plenty since my un-official guide job) all agree when asked that the roads here are not very easy to drive on still we managed to get off with very few accidents (locals) because of bad roads. Alcohol and speeding are the most common causes for accident.

I drove my first car at the age 10, I mean driving, using the stick and all with my dad as a passenger, not legal but we got away with it near our summer cottage. I learned to drive on off-road tracks and later on a frozen lake. So when I got my license I may have had more than 100 hours under my belt.
10 years later I was trained by the Police (I worked for a bank as a driver) in some basic offensive and defensive driving. 9 hours course over a weekend. There I learned some simple tricks like 180 turns from reverse, breaking and accelerating through roadblocks, using the hand break for turning and emergency breaking. We were not encouraged to drive fast but rather trained to respond to ambush and/or get out of situations were our lives would be at risk if we came under armed assault. I must admit, it felt all very Hollywood, but the insurance company paid and the only reason they did is because their insurance company in Denmark insisted.

Exsperience on the road, at least for first few years must count as on the job training since you will face new situations as time goes on. Driving in rain,on icy roads, snow blizzard, avoiding collisions and so on.

It just so happens that my nice took her first driving lesson last week and I was at her house when the teacher arrived. My sister (her mother) asked him how long it would take for her to be able to handle the stick. He told us that most students get it in the first 2-3 lessons but will stall the car on occasion for some time afterwards, especially when they drive a different car with a stick.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Automatic transmissions with mechanical linkages are far more common here. Computerized drive-by-wire systems are only in the last few years of production automobiles (and come in "manual" versions too, btw).

Wait, so does an auto-transmission compute the optimal gear for a given speed/rpm or not? I thought that the whole idea behind automatic transmissions is that 'they' do it instead of the driver.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Wait, so does an auto-transmission compute the optimal gear for a given speed/rpm or not? I thought that the whole idea behind automatic transmissions is that 'they' do it instead of the driver.

Compute in a old-fashioned sense, maybe. Automatic transmissions predate portable electronic computers.

[alaph]

semi-off-topic meta observation here....


you people, and I mean that lovingly, have a way of turning everything into a mind boggling array of numbers and abstract mathematics that always makes me feel like this is less a gaming forum and more a class on simulating real world activities via GURPSian computational systems. That said Kromm seems to play head master and certain others being peers and TAs and the majority classmates....I guess I'm auditing.

Honestly I love it here but sometimes you can become way too over detailed about fingernail clipping and I have to laugh.

On topic though: Back when I was avidly playing Grand Prix Legends there was a discussion about the benefits of playing the game on real world driving and I must admit that I had noticed a greater awareness in myself of my own driving abilities.
Not sure how that plays out in the larger discussion but I thought it was interesting.

Cheers
alaph

[gjc8]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

We have over 200 million licensed drivers, 20% of them are "ZipCar/Sunday Drivers" with no familiarity bonuses, it's easy enough seeing another 60 million drivers on default and as minor dabblers, this then gives us close to 100 million drivers who are serious dabblers or who have some skill, and a couple of million drivers with actually serious professional driving skill.

I might quibble with the exact numbers, but yes: A chunk of Sunday drivers, young people, and etc, as dabblers.

A majority (or maybe plurality) who have 1 or 2 points, gained mostly from simple practice commuting.

And a somewhat smaller chunk of people with a lot more experience and/or real training: (serious) amateur racers, professional drivers (including truckers of various sorts, etc), who probably have DX+1 to DX+3.

Above that, the small number of highly skilled professionals: stunt drivers, professional racers, etc.

[Refplace]

To me it seems that driving does indeed improve your skill.
I started driving late at almost 18 and 30 years later I would say I am a much better driver then when I started.
Drivers Ed gave me my Defaults but probably no skill.
I would say its a safe bet of driving two hours a day 5 days a week for that time period. Many times much more time behind the wheel and other times less but as I look back thats been a good average. Some of that was paid driving like when I was in the military but mostly its standard commuting. So lets run some numbers, please feel free to correct my math.

52 weeks a year=260 driving days=520 hours
4 hours on the job is 1 hour training. takes that 520 hours to 130 hours towards the goal of 200 hours per point. 30 years of that would mean I have 19.5 points which ill round up to 20since I was light on my number of hours estimate.
that gives me DX+5 which I would say is 13 but most would be at 15 for the same time period.
That might be right for me but seems high for those I see driving around me. However many are also adding penalities to thier roll such as texting, talking on the phone or other distractions.
Most of those are penalties to the Per or IQ part of driving (which Im better at then the DX part) and most people can recover from the failed roll so we just see a lot of near misses.

Speaking of which I think normal driving is a combination of two rolls. Roll based on IQ first then if you fail roll against DX to recover with a penalty based on how bad you failed the first roll. Or maybe only fr crit failing the first roll.
Like one of the posters above I use my DX the whole commute but avoid having to push it because I drive defensively and with some idea of basics that allow me to avoid most accidents.
In that time I have been involved in just a few accidents.
1 driving stick 2 weeks after I got my license and I used the clutch as a break.
2 drove into a light pole because I fell asleep at the wheel. But even then I avoided rolling the van because of a good IQ based roll that let me judge the right speed to stay upright rather then roll on the embankment.
3 rear ended at a stop light when it turned green and the ar behind me thought that meant go rather then waiting for the twenty or so cars ahead of me to go FIRST.
4 side swiped by a car that ran a stop sign and hit me as I was making my left turn.

During that time I have had other incidents I wont call accidents or failed driving rolls. Blowing a tire but staying on the road is not IMHO failed roll for example.

[zorg]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Is there somewhere in the rules that says you need challenge to improve from on-the-job use of skills?

No. I was going from real world common sense, where this is so. However, sir p already quoted the relevant part of the rules, and by the raw, I was mistaken.