Driving Default: Yesterday I reality-checked it . . .

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by smurf

Mine idles at between 900 to 1100 rpm. It sits at 70mph (110kmh) at 2000 rpm.

Yeah, you're right...I biffed that one. My old Acura Integra GS-R, in 5th gear, had an almost exact x20 multiplier from thousands of RPM to mph. So at 2k RPM, it was 40mph in 5th gear; 4k RPM was 80mph.

As a by the way, what do you DRIVE that goes 70 at only 2000rpm?

[Opellulo]

Originally Posted by Icelander

So, in your experience, there is no difference between someone who has been shown how to use the controls (justifying default) and someone who has driven for 10 years if both of them are forced to drive a car of a different make than what they are used to (both unfamiliar)?

I repeat: for MANY people the difference would be minimal: "driving experience" is not daily commuting to work but know how to react in less than optimal, unexpected or dangerous circumstances becaming familiar with them.

Put these two drivers on the same conditions and then force them to react to a sudden "threat" (a pedestrian or car out of nowhere, a leak of oil or a hole) most of the time the reaction is the same: a crash. If someone avoid it is becuse he knows how to react and doesn't freeze doing it (or, of course, is simply a stroke of luck).

Never confuse confidence with experience...

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Opellulo

I repeat: for MANY people the difference would be minimal: "driving experience" is not daily commuting to work but know how to react in less than optimal, unexpected or dangerous circumstances becaming familiar with them.

After ten years, it's almost impossible that someone has not been forced to react to less than optimal, unexpected or dangerous circumstances sometimes. Someone else's attentions slipping, someone cutting you off, etc.

The idea that someone could manage to drive the same road for ten years without once having to vary his responses from one day to the next is pure fiction.

Originally Posted by Opellulo

Put these two drivers on the same conditions and then force them to react to a sudden "threat" (a pedestrian or car out of nowhere, a leak of oil or a hole) most of the time the reaction is the same: a crash. If someone avoid it is becuse he know how to react and doesn't freeze doing it (or, of course, is simply a stroke of luck).

So the average result of a pedestrian unexpectedly running in traffic is a crash?

If true, thousands of people would die in traffic here per year.

Originally Posted by Opellulo

Never confuse confidence with experience...

In your opininion, what is it about Driving that justifies treating it differently to all other skills?

With everything else, if you spend time using the skill, you improve in it slowly-but-surely until you can reliably succeed at everything you encounter in your use of the skill (at which point you need greater challenges to improve your skill). Why not with Driving?

Is it magic?

[smurf]

Originally Posted by Captain-Captain

It would be Law (Traffic), not rules Lore. The game itself wants to uncomplicate things. EVERY aspect of operating a vehicle in traffic and other conditions is covered by the Vehicle skill. You don't roll Law skill to see if you remember to use your turn signals then a Dex based skill to make the turn itself.

The way die rolling works NO ONE has any real chance of getting through ten miles of traffic when you make that many rolls.

Since the reality check is most people who make ten mile long drives arrive safely in the expected amount of time, the reality check here is that you DON'T overcomplicate driving.

Bingo

Even with a manual gear box. I can feel the engine 'bite' against the clutch when you feather it. But it is another style of driving, it is second nature. Personally I think automatic parking sequence is a nightmare but it is not what Gurps driving is about.

[smurf]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Yeah, you're right...I biffed that one. My old Acura Integra GS-R, in 5th gear, had an almost exact x20 multiplier from thousands of RPM to mph. So at 2k RPM, it was 40mph in 5th gear; 4k RPM was 80mph.

As a by the way, what do you DRIVE that goes 70 at only 2000rpm?

Citroen C5 estate 2.0l Hdi 138bhp, six speed. I think at 2500rpm it does 80-5

The newer C5 2.0l Hdi has a 160bhp six speed gear box, I won't be driving one of those until the older one has packed up (I believe in about 10 years!).

[Qoltar]

A couple of years ago, I think Kromm weigted in on Driving and said it should not be considered as a default sklill automatically for characters living in the western world.

Remember, there are many, many cities that have a dcecent public transportation system where driving and owning a car are not an assumed requirement. (Cincinnati is not one of those cities)

- Ed Charlton

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by smurf

Citroen C5 estate 2.0l Hdi 138bhp, six speed. I think at 2500rpm it does 80-5

The newer C5 2.0l Hdi has a 160bhp six speed gear box, I won't be driving one of those until the older one has packed up (I believe in about 10 years!).

Hrm. I'll have to check my own car. I'd have been at 3500rpm in my Acura, and I'm curious to what I'd be at 70...Ah, ha! It's a diesel.

nevermind. That explains a lot.

[smurf]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Hrm. I'll have to check my own car. I'd have been at 3500rpm in my Acura, and I'm curious to what I'd be at 70...Ah, ha! It's a diesel.

nevermind. That explains a lot.

Diesels are quite common in Europe.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by smurf

Diesels are quite common in Europe.

Yeah...we've got some perverse regulations about particle emissions that aren't as relevant as they used to be, but were one of the reasons that small diesel engines never got traction here.

I'm waiting for TDI-Electric hybrid tech on a Subaru (or any AWD car)...

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Icelander

After ten years, it's almost impossible that someone has not been forced to react to less than optimal, unexpected or dangerous circumstances sometimes. Someone else's attentions slipping, someone cutting you off, etc.

The idea that someone could manage to drive the same road for ten years without once having to vary his responses from one day to the next is pure fiction.

Sure, and in those 10 years you've maybe made a couple of dozen driving rolls to avoid an accident, maybe a half hour's worth of skill training per year which added all up doesn't even come close to the training you get in a good 8 hour defensive driving course which most driver's never take.

Originally Posted by Icelander

So the average result of a pedestrian unexpectedly running in traffic is a crash?

If true, thousands of people would die in traffic here per year.

You only die on a critical failure.
Thousands of people die in traffic here every year, we have 4-5k pedestrians killed and 35-45k vehicle accident deaths per year.
We have 6-7 million traffic accidents and 3 million traffic injuries per year.

Originally Posted by Icelander

In your opinion, what is it about Driving that justifies treating it differently to all other skills?

Nothing, other skills don't magically improve either.

Originally Posted by Icelander

With everything else, if you spend time using the skill, you improve in it slowly-but-surely until you can reliably succeed at everything you encounter in your use of the skill (at which point you need greater challenges to improve your skill). Why not with Driving?

People don't magically learn driving skills just by commuting to work every day.
Cars don't have little magic fairy gremlins who twitch their noses and improve your driving skill just for sitting down and going somewhere.

Most people make the same mistake over and over, they don't learn anything and they only die in an accident if they critically fail their recovery roll.

If you're running a high fantasy cinematic game you can give everyone skill levels for things they do routinely, but if you're running a game with any degree of realism at all you need to consider how such a skill would improve, or not.

In the case of routine driving the answer is the skill does not improve beyond the Dabbler level.