Reality check: Knockout gas?

[J.C.D.]

Ok, sorry I haven't been around for a while. My computer crashed and burned and it took me a while to get a new one. I couldn't login thru the computers my friends had for a reason, but now I've got a new one so I'm back.

Anyway, I wanted to post a reality check about 'knockout gas'. Basically we see it a lot in fiction, often in the old batman series where one whiff of colored fumes from the penguin's umbrella or the joker's carnation would leave ther caped crusaders to slowly collapse.

Knockout gas also featured in various films and other tv shows. The thing is I wonder if there really is anything like knockout gas that works as it's often shown in fiction.

I know there's the stuff they use in hospitals for surgery but that has to take a while and be carefully administered. There are, I'm told, lethal gases that can kill or drop someone almost instantly, but maybe no true knowkout gas. It seems it's easier to kill someone that make them just lose consciousness.

Chloroform isn't a gas, usually, tho a rag with it can KO someone in a minute or so.

Personally I don't think that knockout gas passes the reality check for a simple reason: We don't see it used in real life. Police would use it if it existed, I'm sure, and it could be used by anti-terrorist units, but they don't seem to have it either.

Likewise if it existed I'mcertain it would be standard in all prisons.

So, I'd say that knockout gas fails the reality check if you mean the stuff you just spray in someone's face and they instantly collapse, but are unharmed otherwise.

Anyone else know anything about it?

[Tom Schoene]

There are anaesthetic gasses that will knock people out pretty quickly, but as you suggest, they have nasty sideeffects. This hasn't kept them form being used, however. The most recent (and highly publicized) example is the gas used by the Russian security forces in the Moscow Theater rescue a couple of years ago. They pumped the building full of an anaethetic (specifically a fentanyl derivative) then went in shooting. The gas knocked out many of the people in the building, but about 120 of the 700-odd hostages died as a result of gas exposure (about 40 of the 50-some terrorists also died, mostly of poin-blank gunshots to the head). The number of civilian casualties was dramatically increased by the Russian government's refusal to inform hospitals of the specific drugs used until it was too late to do much specific treatment. But it seems likely that many fatalities could be expected even with appropriate medical care.

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/enc...age_crisis.htm

[Anthony]

A wide variety of anaesthetics exist, which will certainly knock people out.

There are a couple of problems:
1) The range of tolerances is quite high. The same dose might kill one person and not even render another person unconscious (this is also a problem with drugged darts).
2) To render someone unconscious quickly requires a higher dose, which will thus kill more people (also a problem for darts)
3) You don't stop breathing in the gas once you're knocked out (though your breathing slows somewhat). If you have a gas which knocks people out in 60 seconds, and doesn't dissipate for ten minutes, everyone in the room is going to get something like five times the knockout dose. This will kill even more people.

All of this is the reason anaesthesiologist is a medical specialty requiring special training.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by J.C.D.

So, I'd say that knockout gas fails the reality check if you mean the stuff you just spray in someone's face and they instantly collapse, but are unharmed otherwise.

It would be safer to spray it in someone's face than laying in a pool of gas which streams from the ceiling, and isn't circulated out fast.

ie. If the Penguin hits someone with a blast of knockout gas from his umbrella, delivered at short range, there a high probability the target will breathe it in. If it's a heavy dose anaesthetic, there's a high probability the target will partially or totally collapse.

Since the villains probably aren't that worried about side-effects, it's likely that they're being a bit heavy on the dose, so anyone exposed who is especially sensitive will have possible permanent damage up to and including death.

[The Benj]

Anthony's third point is an especially solid one. If you're going to pump a room full of knockout gas, you'll also want to pump it right back out again if you don't want those people to die once they're unconscious.

[Gaming_Bird]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

It would be safer to spray it in someone's face than laying in a pool of gas which streams from the ceiling, and isn't circulated out fast.

ie. If the Penguin hits someone with a blast of knockout gas from his umbrella, delivered at short range, there a high probability the target will breathe it in. If it's a heavy dose anaesthetic, there's a high probability the target will partially or totally collapse.

Since the villains probably aren't that worried about side-effects, it's likely that they're being a bit heavy on the dose, so anyone exposed who is especially sensitive will have possible permanent damage up to and including death.

Interesting point, it makes gas-weilding villians much more plausable, and makes gass-using heroes, such as the hero in the old Darkwing Duck cartoon, much less plausable, since the 'good guys' would be worried about the side effects and accidentally killing someone.

Then again, there was one 'golden age' hero (I want to say Doc Sampson, but I could be wrong) who didn't turn the criminals he caught over to the authorities, but instead kept them incarcerated in his hideout until after he performed an operation that removed their 'overactive villany gland.' Such a level of heavy-handed vigilantiism would be quite a problem if others (such as his teammates) found out.

[J.C.D.]

Originally Posted by Gaming_Bird

Interesting point, it makes gas-weilding villians much more plausable, and makes gass-using heroes, such as the hero in the old Darkwing Duck cartoon, much less plausable, since the 'good guys' would be worried about the side effects and accidentally killing someone.

Then again, there was one 'golden age' hero (I want to say Doc Sampson, but I could be wrong) who didn't turn the criminals he caught over to the authorities, but instead kept them incarcerated in his hideout until after he performed an operation that removed their 'overactive villany gland.' Such a level of heavy-handed vigilantiism would be quite a problem if others (such as his teammates) found out.

Doc Savage, actually.

[AmesJainchill]

Originally Posted by Gaming_Bird

Then again, there was one 'golden age' hero (I want to say Doc Sampson, but I could be wrong) who didn't turn the criminals he caught over to the authorities, but instead kept them incarcerated in his hideout until after he performed an operation that removed their 'overactive villany gland.' Such a level of heavy-handed vigilantiism would be quite a problem if others (such as his teammates) found out.

That's not vigilantism. Vigilantism, by definition, requires multiple participants.

[Tom Schoene]

Originally Posted by AmesJainchill

That's not vigilantism. Vigilantism, by definition, requires multiple participants.

Historically, yes, in the sense that a vigilante was "a member of a vigilance committee." But a more modern definition would be simply "one who takes law enforcement into one's own hands."

[Akicita]

Originally Posted by AmesJainchill

That's not vigilantism. Vigilantism, by definition, requires multiple participants.

In the case of Doc Savage, there were multiple participants. His entire team was in on this scheme. Not only did they remove the villany gland, they also removed memories. And a few times, they persuaded innocent bystanders who knew too much to submit to the memory loss operation.

Back on topic, Doc also had a knock-out gas that knocked out everyone on stage at the time, never caused fatalities or any other medical complications, and dissipated harmlessly after 60 seconds, so that Doc could just hold his breath for the duration.