[MA] Best dirty-fighting style for a callous weakling?

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by giganerds

While I agree with some arguments here, I'm skinny and problably ST bellow 10, I never be strong and never win strength contest. But I already train Jiu Jitsu and I often put down most of the newbies "big" oponnents without too much effort. I only get in throuble with the experienced and the very faster.... .

My girlfriend and her friend took a bunch of self defense classes. They tried their finger, arm, etc. locks on me. My high pain threshold just didn't allow her or her friend to do anything to me.

When I was a kid, some "bully" broke my finger while I sat there and looked confused. I didn't realize it was broken until later.
My arms don't quite strighten, so she couldn't get a leverage basis for an arm lock.

To make matters more irritating for them, they tried their stuff on our other friend. Sadly he is gumby, so bending his fingers or arms didn't even cause any pain.

As to throws, since I'm horribly clumsy I've learned to fall rather safely.
As to avoiding the clumsy guys' counter attack. I once got irritated enough trying to find something that I picked up our couch and swung it like a club.
I may have an unremarkable DX, but how easy would it be to avoid getting hit by swung furniture? ;)

[giganerds]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

My girlfriend and her friend took a bunch of self defense classes. They tried their finger, arm, etc. locks on me. My high pain threshold just didn't allow her or her friend to do anything to me.

How much is a "buch"? Most self defense training goes for years to make good effects. After all, this could be Judo Art?

When I was a kid, some "bully" broke my finger while I sat there and looked confused. I didn't realize it was broken until later.
My arms don't quite strighten, so she couldn't get a leverage basis for an arm lock.

I broke one toe running when I a teenager I only realize two hours after the hit and I don't have any high pain threshold like. I think it's depends of the frature, some types of injuries don't hurt to much. Adrenaline helps too.

To make matters more irritating for them, they tried their stuff on our other friend. Sadly he is gumby, so bending his fingers or arms didn't even cause any pain.

Judo Art?

As to throws, since I'm horribly clumsy I've learned to fall rather safely.
As to avoiding the clumsy guys' counter attack. I once got irritated enough trying to find something that I picked up our couch and swung it like a club.
I may have an unremarkable DX, but how easy would it be to avoid getting hit by swung furniture? ;)

They did use Telegraphic Attacks? :-)

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by giganerds

How much is a "buch"? Most self defense training goes for years to make good effects. After all, this could be Judo art?

Some, but far fewer than a boat load? I forget how many. Either way it's easier when the target is helping you to achieve the right angles.

Originally Posted by giganerds

I broke one toe running when I a teenager I only realize two hours after the hit and I don't have any high pain threshold like. I think it's depends of the frature, some types of injuries don't hurt to much. Adrenaline helps too.

I was sitting quietly on a bus with no epinephrine surges. The kid was just being a weird jerk. I admit that it wasn't a gross fracture, but it did require that I wear a cast like thing for weeks. I thought it was funny that it didn't hurt any where near the level that I thought "real" injuries should. It was on my non-dominant hand so I didn't have any problem as I always considered righty to my spare. :)

Originally Posted by giganerds

...They did use Telegraphic Attacks? :-)

I'm strong enough to qualify for at least 11 or 12 strength... when I do get an epinephrine surge I get almost unnatural strength. I was ticked off as a 7 year old and actually tossed a bunkbed across the room... an object that I could barely shove an inch normally.

[Icelander]

I'll back Flyndaran up here.

I've seen tons of fictional heroes who could use speed and skill to defeat much larger and stronger foes with ease. I've heard a bunch of martial art enthusiasts exclaim how their mad skills will allow them to automatically kill/cripple/disarm/lock any guy, no matter how strong.

But I've never seen it happen in real life. In real life, the big and strong beat up the small and weak. It's depressing, but it's true. Even a kumite national title holder probably can't do anything about a guy twice her weight if he doesn't want to cooperate.

GURPS, in the service of heroic fiction, probably makes it easier than it should be for skill and speed to compensate for physical strength, but there's still a major advantage to being strong under GURPS rules.

In real life, weight classes exist for a reason. World class competitors in fighting sports tend to perform badly when matched against someone far out of their weight class. And those aren't people with below average ST, just ones that aren't as strong as the other guy. Once you get to underfed and physically weak people, they just aren't going to be able to perform all the neat tricks they learned in their Aikido classes against a resisting opponent.

Most martial arts training isn't done against people trying to hurt you. It's far, far harder to perform a complex manouvre that ends up putting your foe in a lock when he's not actively cooperating.

[Kyle Aaron]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

Do damage, create an opening, and run.

Indeed, this is the advice of self-defence oriented martial arts schools, except that they make it,

1. avoid looking like a victim, and going to places where you might become a victim
2. try talking
3. if talking doesn't work, run
4. if you can't run, do damage, make an opening, and then run.

Because whatever your ST, DX, HT and skills, the other guy might get a critical success, and being injured hurts, and may hurt for a long time. And hurting the other guy leads to all sorts of headaches with the law, etc.

I say all that as a person who is much closer to Kromm's "Big Guy" than his "Small Guy", both in reality and in the sorts of characters I like to play :)

Of course standing and fighting is usually more fun in an rpg session :D

[rcarter]

Originally Posted by rosignol

Yup. I'm currently playing a mage in a fantasy game. He carries a staff, but has yet to swing it at anyone (the game has been going on for ~2 years now). It's all about being able to parry the first swing... after which he outruns the armor-plated mook swinging the pointy thing

IMO, if you're going to buy down ST, spend the first 10 on +2 move.

Have to agree with this. Been GMing for awhile got to make and play a character finally. Made a psi with TK grab 1, some engineering skills, some shooting skills and a handmade gun in a steampunk game. Played the character 4 times now and still haven't got into combat and combat ability is pretty good but smart is better; i've learned, after gming, that life is precious in gurps and playing in character my character probably doesn;t want to get hurt or risk his life unless he has to or is sure that the odds are stacked in his favor.

[Trachmyr]

Just thought I'd throw my $0.02 in here...

A high ST makes a person/character dangerous in a fight by virtue of that Strength. For instance at ST 13, only a few point in Brawling makes a formidable fighter without the need for much else. A ST 8 character/person will NEED a lot of skill to match or surpass that high-ST character.... but in GURPS, they have 50 points to do so... and that can go a long way.

IRL I've trained in a number of martial arts for 20 years (well, a few months shy of that)... although not always at the same intensity. In my 20's I did exhibitions, then later did what they call now "Mixed Martial Arts" bouts for about a year, at which point an injury made me come to my senses.

There were 'low-ST' fighters in the bouts... even one of my Sifus was deffinately low-ST... but I sure wouldn't want to make that guy mad (and IRL there was an attempt to mug him by 3 large guys, he didn't break a sweat and they broke a lot more... security footage caught it all).

While a low-ST fighter can be effective, they MUST be either more Skilled or Smarter... better if both. If the opponent is cocky, that helps too. Focus is on accuracy, avoiding being hit, and minimizing their 'weakness'.

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I can offer you more advice on unarmed combat than armed combat, but first some weapon advice:

• Thrust/IMP attacks are pretty much what you're going to use, both due to Min.ST and the fact that you're Swing damage is pitiful (& generally means you'll be stuch with cut/cr instead of imp).

• Your BEST options are Smallsword/Sabre/Short Spear/Javelin/Katar... with Short Swords and large knives comming in second. With ST9, the Naginata gives you some other options... and a full-sized spear becomes an option. Remember the Huge Weapons[ST] perk allows you to use these weapons without penalty as well.

• Weapon Quality is critical. The +1 or +2 damage is crucial, and Kromm has said that very fine spears are possible for 15x cost.

• Accuracy is very important... thus consider taking a Targeted Attack technique. Choose one that is appropriate for the campaign. Modern day, a TA:Vitals works great, but has problems with body armor common at earlier TL's. The neck and Face make good options. Eyes is ofcourse the best, but costly and you won't be able to get the penalty down too far w/o taking the Technique Mastery perk

• Proper use of Extra Effort and smart use of Defensive Attacks/Committed Attacks can boost damage. Feints and deceptive attacks are critical, to make sure your effort isn't wasted.

• Remember that a reversed grip gives +1 Impaling damage. This will harm your parry, so you'll need a good dodge

• And ofcourse you'll need your defenses high enough to avoid most attacks... if using a saber/smallsword, consider Techniques that can reduce the penalties for Slip and Sideslip (no techniques are written, but it suggests that these penalties could be bought off)

• Damage potential can get pretty high. For a Very Fine saber in a committed attack with Extra Effort this is 1d+3IMP at ST8... a full-sized VF spear in reverse grip using a committed attack & Extra Effort gets up to 2d+2IMP at ST8. This will tire you out, so make sure you attack when the opponet has trouble defending (feints, posture, runarounds, etc.)

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For unarmed combat, the question of Grappling vs. Striking is even more important.

Strikers focus on kicks (still usually low-line kicks unless they set up there opponent first. Keepin distance from their opponent and staying mobile. They'll try to "dance" around their opponent and get their oppoent to follow, closly watching their steps (Evaluate Manuver) until their a slight break in thier stride... or they get caught turning in place. Then There a quick strike... if the opponent is caught off-guard, this becomes a flurry... if not, the "dancer" pulls out to continue. These "Dancers" make heavy use of slip & sideslip in order to allow flank or rear attacks. Consider a sideslip to your opponent's side hex... then a concentrated attack for extra movement allowing a rear attack. Sweeps are VERY useful, often as part of a deceptive attack... one the opponent is on the ground, very nasty kicks to the back of the head can end a fight quickly.

These strikers usually get through a fight without being hit or grappled... in fact, if they do get hit... they usually lose. This is the down-side, there is little defense against a grapple and little resilacncy to being hit. There is also a lot of room for things to go wrong, and the fight to end badly.

The other option is to go via grappling. Small grapplers tend to be "painfully" flexible... at least the effective ones. Flexible or Double Jointed is a must, and helps overcome your lower ST when you have to break-free. A high Judo skill and Wrestling at DX+2 are critical. Arm Locks, Choke Holds and Headlocks are your bread and butter. Always attempt to manuver BEHIND your opponent, thus slip and sideslip are useful. With a good skill you can overcome a low ST.... for most opponents. However, all that training can go out the window if you have to fight a true behemoth or another trained grappler who IS strong.

See if Special Exercises for Lifting ST and Slippery 1 might be allowed, this can give you an "edge through training". And knives are always useful in close combat....

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Before I go, I'd like to give my opinion on Arm Locks IRL.... they are scarely effective when used correctly.... but that's the thing, few people who are taught how to apply an Arm Lock actually "get it".... and if improperly applied they can be powered out of fairly easily. But when applied correctly, it has little to do with strength and everything to do with the anatomical design of the human arm... and taking advantage of that design. Yes, an Arm Lock can inflict pain and someone with a high-pain threshold can power through that pain... but HPT won't do anything for torn ligaments and hyerextended joints... which is also what a (properly applied) arm lock WILL do if the the person applying it wants to.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I'll back Flyndaran up here.

I've seen tons of fictional heroes who could use speed and skill to defeat much larger and stronger foes with ease. I've heard a bunch of martial art enthusiasts exclaim how their mad skills will allow them to automatically kill/cripple/disarm/lock any guy, no matter how strong.

But I've never seen it happen in real life. In real life, the big and strong beat up the small and weak. It's depressing, but it's true. Even a kumite national title holder probably can't do anything about a guy twice her weight if he doesn't want to cooperate.

GURPS, in the service of heroic fiction, probably makes it easier than it should be for skill and speed to compensate for physical strength, but there's still a major advantage to being strong under GURPS rules.

In real life, weight classes exist for a reason. World class competitors in fighting sports tend to perform badly when matched against someone far out of their weight class. And those aren't people with below average ST, just ones that aren't as strong as the other guy. Once you get to underfed and physically weak people, they just aren't going to be able to perform all the neat tricks they learned in their Aikido classes against a resisting opponent.

Most martial arts training isn't done against people trying to hurt you. It's far, far harder to perform a complex manouvre that ends up putting your foe in a lock when he's not actively cooperating.

While I don't disagree with this, I'll point out that I don't think it's the measure of the question here. In competitions the form and rules of the encounter are set an shared. So, between two equally trained and equally talented fighters, in GURPS terms the bigger, stronger one will simply have more points (probably between 10-30 difference in a realistic setting).

The question here is more, when points are equal and the options are all open as to build and tactics, which ones work for a smaller fighter? On that plane I don't think it is a foregone conclusion that every ST-focused build will necessarily defeat every other option; testing is probably the best recourse to find out.

[giganerds]

I like what Trachmyr post here.

A high ST person or character will have advantages against a weak one, as so a high DX person will have against a klutz.

Like Trachmyr said, a weak person needs training to overcome a strong one. And yes, IMHO, it's possible in reality and inside GURPS. Take the characters put in example in this posts, to overcome strength you need high skill level.

Take in mind, most reslistic people don't have even a point in brawling, karate, judo or wrestling, they use plain DX to hit and grapple and problably with telegraphic attacks.

Most martial training, don't prepare you to fight. Competition has many rules and demonstrations are at best fancy. I know that, I practice a sport like, a art like and a fight like styles. All are completelly different thing. I watch many MA classes, and I see various absurds, including things like kicking a hand with a gun and manking a jump kick to open a fight against a knife.

And believe me, the fight part is the most hard to learn, not only because the techniques byself, but because you need cool blood to don't be nervous and use it correctly on a risk situation. How many risks situations the people in this list (including me) are involved? It's very difficult to measure it.

The better fighters problably are the balanced, who distribute all training between strength, finesse, tactics and fitness. And are balanced in grappling and striking techniques too.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I've seen tons of fictional heroes who could use speed and skill to defeat much larger and stronger foes with ease.

Which is, of course, something GURPS should permit. However, it will cost you a bunch of points.

Originally Posted by Icelander

Even a kumite national title holder probably can't do anything about a guy twice her weight if he doesn't want to cooperate.

Well, if he has a certain level of skill and physical development. Superior skill matters, and degree of superiority matters, it's just that in the real world there's pretty strong limits to just how good you can actually be, and in general speed is heavily correlated with muscle development anyway (there's a reason track stars and gymnasts are solid blocks of muscle).