we want more denizens!!!

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Blind Mapmaker

Definitely go with Holy Warriors then!

Native American Crusaders in Pyramid #3/122 has a few spirit warrior power ups

[mburr0003]

Druids and Holy Warriors are next on my the wish list. Druids have needed very heavy lifting on my part ot make them attractive and Holy Warriors if limited to what's in print get stale fast and then either quickly become 2nd rate Knights or 2nd rate Clerics, when they should be their own thing.

Then someone really needs to start on racial Denizens books... which could even be done as combo race books, Denizens of the Glades covering "forest" variants of the DF/RPG races, Hillfolk, Mountain Clans, etc...

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

When I was running DF actively I must have wrote 30,000 or 40,000 words worth of new material for holy warriors, bards, druids, and knights. Just absolute gobs of random stuff for my players to expand their options. If I were to write another Denizens book it would probably be for either bards or holy warriors - probably the latter. Holy warriors are so *neat* in the idiom of dungeon fantasy, but so mechanically boring in GURPS Dungeon Fantasy. There needs to be more that they can do. The cleric should not effectively be a better holy warrior with the right traits than the holy warrior itself and right now that's sort of the case.

So much this. (Emphasis mine.)

A minimal fix is to give the Holy Warrior access to Weapon Master (Swords, or weapon of choice) to differentiate them from clerics. That, plus their existing access to Extra Attack and Magic Resistance which Clerics do not get, plus Peter's fix to Higher Purpose (allowing it to apply per-damage-die)... I think that's about right to give Holy Warrior a distinct niche.

Holy Warrior-specific Holy Avenger swords wouldn't hurt though.

[Rupert]

And if Holy Warriors get Weapon Master, what makes a Knight special?

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

So much this.

A minimal fix is to give the Holy Warrior access to Weapon Master (Swords, or weapon of choice) to differentiate them from clerics. That, plus their existing access to Extra Attack and Magic Resistance which Clerics do not get, plus Peter's fix to Higher Purpose (allowing it to apply per-damage-die)... I think that's about right to give Holy Warrior a distinct niche.

Holy Warrior-specific Holy Avenger swords wouldn't hurt though.

I'd jooze it up by giving them some stuff from MH Power-Ups 1 myself. Powers to do do aura effects to allies, better holy damage, even better Heroic Feats, supernatural offensive and defensive stuff, and so on. I'd consider a perk/optional rule/something that collapses the need for like 3 skills to know stuff about demons and undead. There is a lot that could be done.

Originally Posted by Rupert

And if Holy Warriors get Weapon Master, what makes a Knight special?

Their methods of fighting - knights get 60 points to allocate to fighting. That's a lot of variation for them.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Rupert

And if Holy Warriors get Weapon Master, what makes a Knight special?

Awesome perks: Shield Wall Training and Sacrificial Parry are one-point wonders.

To a lesser extent, access to Weapon Master (All) is also a neat shtick, for polearms, slings, morningstars, etc. Armor Mastery also isn't a bad 5-point perk, and Rallying Cry for ending mental stun on allies (Fright Checks!) is also kind of cool.

But Shield Wall Training and Sacrificial Parry are an amazingly good value for 1 point each.

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

I'd jooze it up by giving them some stuff from MH Power-Ups 1 myself. Powers to do do aura effects to allies, better holy damage, even better Heroic Feats, supernatural offensive and defensive stuff, and so on. I'd consider a perk/optional rule/something that collapses the need for like 3 skills to know stuff about demons and undead. There is a lot that could be done.

That seems like overkill to me, but in a thread labeled "we want more denizens!!!" that's probably a minority opinion.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

That seems like overkill to me, but in a thread labeled "we want more denizens!!!" that's probably a minority opinion.

Not really. Holy Warriors should be supreme when combating undead and demons...and...well...they are not. Just like thieves needed sneaky combat power-ups so do holy warriors need "monster hunter-y" combat power-ups.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

Awesome perks: Shield Wall Training and Sacrificial Parry are one-point wonders.

Shield wall training is supposed to be niche-protected? woops!

Its currently one of the distinguishing traits on my earth elementalist. I'd say he fights on the front line, but given his bundle of allies, it might be more accurate to say he IS the front line. Or at least most of it.

[Donny Brook]

Personally, I'm more interested in the vehicles design book.

[Michael Thayne]

One thing that I'd love to see covered in a Holy Warriors or Knights book (or even both!) is more archery-focused versions of these. You can already do this with DF15: Henchmen (Archer/Champion or Archer/Veteran) but it's a bit clunky. For the Knight, the lens might look something like:

Attributes: Lower ST to 13 [30].
Advantages: Add Heroic Archer [20] • Remove High Pain Threshold and add it to the list of optional advantages.
Primary Skills: Replace this entire section as follows: Brawling (E) DX+1 [2]-15 or Boxing (A) DX [2]-14; Bow (A) DX+4 [16]-18; Fast-Draw (Arrow) (E) DX+1 [1]-15†; and Sumo Wrestling or Wrestling, both (A) DX [2]-14. • One of Axe/Mace, Broadsword, Polearm, Shortsword, Spear, or Two-Handed Sword, all (A) DX+1 [4]-15; or Flail (H) DX+5 [4]-14. • Spend a total 12 points on additional choices from the previous list; Lance (A) DX+1 [4] or Shield (E) DX+2 [4]; or 4 points/level raising any primary weapon skill by up to three levels.
Secondary Skills: Add choice of Knife (E) DX [1]-14 or Fast Draw (Any other) (E) DX+1 [1]-15†.