Pulling Your Punches

[Jhanis]

Hey guys, so I've just started a new game and for the first time I'm trying out a Paladin build. However, I have come across a niggle.

Let me set the stage for you:
My party and I just entered the local inn, looking for a place to rest for the night. My paladin enters, the chattering stops as every eye in the room turns to the man, clad in full plate armour, as he stands in the doorway, scanning the room. The eyes then lower to see the dwarf stood beside him, and laughter erupts from the crowd, with calls of "Hey! Do you want a tall glass of ale?!" and "Be sure not to short-change him!", one voice louder than the rest shouts "HIIIIGH HOOOOO!".

The dwarf who has Bad Temper, Berserk, Blood Lust, No Sense of Humour, Sadism (you get the idea) is asked to roll a Will check.....there is a loud crash as a chair hits the loud mouth in the teeth.

Roll Initiative.

6 Angry farmers have stood up from their tables with weapons drawn, a mix of bar stools, broken bottles, farming implements and grandad's old army sabre.

My paladin attempts to diplomatically calm the situation. Critical Fail. 4 more farmers stand up.

So we are in a fight, but my paladin has taken an oath not to kill innocents. So he is going to try and hold back. On his turn he rushes two of the farmers, intending to knock one out with his shield and hit the rusty sword out of the hands of the other.

The farmers all have HP of 5.....my shield does Thr cr (ST 13 = 1d Thr) and rolls a 6 damage....turning the first farmer into a crumpled mess on the floor. Managed to hit the sword and knock it to the floor though. But that farmer he steamrolled is dead.

So my question is: How do you pull your punches in gurps? I just wanted to knock the guy out.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Jhanis

The farmers all have HP of 5.....my shield does Thr cr (ST 13 = 1d Thr) and rolls a 6 damage....turning the first farmer into a crumpled mess on the floor. Managed to hit the sword and knock it to the floor though. But that farmer he steamrolled is dead.

So my question is: How do you pull your punches in gurps? I just wanted to knock the guy out.

That farmer isn't dead. You have to do him 10 total injury before he's at risk of death, see "General Injury: Lost Hit Points" on p. B419. It's much easier to persuade people to fall down in GURPS than it is to kill them.

To pull a blow, use less ST: you can use any amount between your full ST and 1 ST. This, and other useful rules are in the box "Subduing a Foe" on p. B401.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Jhanis

my shield does Thr cr (ST 13 = 1d Thr) and rolls a 6 damage
How do you pull your punches in gurps? I just wanted to knock the guy out.

"Pull your punches" on page 122 of Basic Set 3e allowed you to choose to hit at lower Striking ST if you want.

As above this got reprinted on B401 in 4E

if it seems too easy then I'd say if we took "All Or Nothing" to counteract the innate "Variable" of ST-based damage that could require hitting at full ST all the time.

[Tinman]

So I think there are a few issues that could use a closer look in your scenario.
1)

Originally Posted by Jhanis

6 Angry farmers have stood up from their tables with weapons drawn, a mix of bar stools, broken bottles, farming implements and grandad's old army sabre.

Weapons like farm tools & sabers are deadly weapons! Is this a bar fight or a fight to kill?

I think your GM needs to clarify what he's going for in this situation.

2)

So we are in a fight, but my paladin has taken an oath not to kill innocents. So he is going to try and hold back.

As the opponents have decided to use deadly force (a saber+), I really don't think they are innocents.

3)

The farmers all have HP of 5

The average human has 10 HP. It sounds like the GM is used to running D&D or something. He needs to be made aware that these are extremally frail farmers.

[vorpalvitto]

Seeing how people have answered your question let me clarify some things.

I guess you are using "Roll Initiative" as a term to say that combat started instead of actual initiative being rolled?

A normal human should have at least 10 ST, so in turn 10 HP, unless they were sick or hurt I guess. Even then when you knocked to 0 HP or less you don't immediately die or fall unconscious, but need to roll an HT check on your turn to see if you actually do drop unconscious. You can possibly die when reaching negative HP equal to your maximum. So for a human farmer it should be -10 HP, so quite some ways from the 6 HP of injury you dealt.
Injuries are explained in Bsic p.419 in more detail.

Also where you able to rush a farmer, shield slam him AND disarm another farmer in the same turn? Because that is a bit difficult to do in GURPS.

And an FYI, that dwarf is just gonna be a LOT of trouble with that combination of traits, especially for a paladin (assuming of a good god of course).

[Pursuivant]

Other folks have given you the game mechanics, I'll cover tactics.

Pulling punches or trying to do minimal damage with weapon strikes isn't the best way to end a fight without hurting or killing people.

If you've got high enough skill, go with disarms or attacks to weapons. Knock weapons out of peoples' hands or break their weapons.

If you've got sufficient mass, go with Slams and shove people out out of melee range.

If you've got just one foe, go for grapples to pin them. Otherwise, use the DF rules for Manhandling to toss foes aside or shove them to safety.

If you've got a long weapon, use feints, Intimidation skill, etc. to keep foes at a distance. Normally, this is a technique to keep multiple foes away from you, but it can also be used to keep foes from engaging an ally - for their own safety.

If you're scary enough, use Intimidation to get foes to run away.

Use barriers, like overturned tables, etc. to interfere with mobility.

You're also artificially limiting your options. The GM has put your character in a bad situation, with a bunch of drunk (effectively) non-combatants insulting two obviously hardcore armored warriors and then immediately escalating to lethal force when one of the warriors loses control. (Their best option for long-term survival is "run like hell.")

First, don't make assumptions. If you're a classic AD&D style paladin/holy warrior, you probably have the ability to Detect Good/Evil or something like it. Get in the habit of using your power, and trying to verify the results, BEFORE you go into combat. It could turn out that the farmers AREN'T innocents, but have a sideline in banditry, etc. when they're not farming.

If you are put in the position of protecting innocents, "attack the farmers with minimal force" isn't the best way to save their lives. Instead, the paladin's first job should be to stop the berserk Dwarf murder hobo before he racks up a body count. Doing that gracefully, without peeving your fellow PC, will be tricky.

If you can reasonably fake it, you might be able to sabotage the dwarf's attacks by interposing yourself between him and his foes or otherwise being an "unhelpful" ally. Use Tactics skill to figure out how to best jam his style, and Acting skill to fake sincerity.

If you can't deescalate the fight that way, and can't use magic to control the battlefield, you might be reduced to trying to toss a rug/cloak/whatever over the dwarf's head to blind him (so he doesn't know who's attacking him), followed by grappling to either take him down and pin him until he calms down, or to manhandle him out the tavern door before closing the door behind him.

The sheer novelty of one adventurer attacking another when the fight has started might be good for another Reaction Roll on the part of the farmers. If you're lucky, they'll back off and watch the PCs fight. If you're not so lucky, they'll just pile on while you're otherwise engaged.

[JulianLW]

If the farmers have HP of 5, then they ought to have ST 5 too.

That's the strength of a small child. Basic defines an attribute this low as worse than "crippling." ST 5 has a basic swing damage of 1d-3

These farmers could make All-Out Attacks (Strong) and still probably not damage the armored delvers you're describing. I think your GM should learn the rules a little better, as a courtesy to the players.

I agree with Pursuivant: the best way to handle this situation is to not worry about the farmers at all, as they're not much of a threat to armored delvers, but to subdue the dwarf.

EDIT: Something else to consider: what are these farmers fighting with? At ST 5, they would be too weak to fight with a quarterstaff. The best they could manage would be a small knife or a smallsword. Their thrust damage is so low (1d-4) that even with a direct hit to the unarmored face of a delver, they would almost never do any damage with a small knife or dagger - only on a roll of 6 would they manage to inflict 2 HP damage (1 multiplied by 2 for impaling).

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Tinman

As the opponents have decided to use deadly force (a saber+), I really don't think they are innocents.

They're just defending their friend who had been assaulted by deadly force (chair to the teeth? that's potentially deadly) so I don't see anything wrong with drawing sabres in this situation.

Originally Posted by vorpalvitto

Also where you able to rush a farmer, shield slam him AND disarm another farmer in the same turn? Because that is a bit difficult to do in GURPS.

You could accomplish that using All-Out Attack (Double) or Rapid Strike or Dual-Weapon attack if you lacked Extra Attack.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

If you are put in the position of protecting innocents, "attack the farmers with minimal force" isn't the best way to save their lives. Instead, the paladin's first job should be to stop the berserk Dwarf murder hobo before he racks up a body count. Doing that gracefully, without peeving your fellow PC, will be tricky.

If you can reasonably fake it, you might be able to sabotage the dwarf's attacks by interposing yourself between him and his foes or otherwise being an "unhelpful" ally. Use Tactics skill to figure out how to best jam his style, and Acting skill to fake sincerity.

Agree here, farmers were mean bullies to mock him but the dwarf did initiate the violence and it's reasonable to expect that if you neutralized the danger the dwarf represented to the farmers they would re-sheath their weapons and you could negotiate the dental bill of the guy who got chair-smashed.

Originally Posted by JulianLW

If the farmers have HP of 5, then they ought to have ST 5 too.

That's the strength of a small child. Basic defines an attribute this low as worse than "crippling." ST 5 has a basic swing damage of 1d-3

ST and HP don't always need to match up, as B16 allows buying HP within 30% of ST in realistic campaigns, so someone with ST 10 could have anywhere from 7 to 13 HP.

That's just for the maximum too. There are all kinds of problems that could lower your current HP from 7 to 5, such as injuries that might've happened while they were working out in the field all day.

An interesting system for that if you use Last Gasp is the % chance you lose HP any time you use FP for anything whatsoever, which could rack up unexpected injuries through pushing one's limits.

[JulianLW]

Originally Posted by Plane

ST and HP don't always need to match up, as B16 allows buying HP within 30% of ST in realistic campaigns, so someone with ST 10 could have anywhere from 7 to 13 HP.

That's just for the maximum too. There are all kinds of problems that could lower your current HP from 7 to 5, such as injuries that might've happened while they were working out in the field all day.

An interesting system for that if you use Last Gasp is the % chance you lose HP any time you use FP for anything whatsoever, which could rack up unexpected injuries through pushing one's limits.

Sure. But as written, at HP 5, these guys have exactly 1 more HP than a standard domesticated housecat. If they're strong enough to pick up sabers and chairs, at 5 HP, those farmers have lost a lot of blood already - or something equally dire. I wonder why they're picking fights in bars instead of at home in bed.

EDIT: Basic puts a housecat at ST 4 and HP 4. Pizard's Animalia puts a housecat at ST 5, HP 5. So these farmers are about as strong (in terms of HP, at least) as 6 housecats.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Plane

They're just defending their friend who had been assaulted by deadly force (chair to the teeth? that's potentially deadly) so I don't see anything wrong with drawing sabres in this situation.

If there isn't, then there isn't anything wrong with using deadly force against them either right? You're just defending yourself against potentially deadly assault.

But note that this is not what "innocent" means in constructions like this. It is not an opposite of wrong, or guilty, or even involved, it's an opposite of noxious - i.e. capable of or likely to cause harm.

People attacking you are [never] innocent in that sense. Well OK if it would take more than a critical hit for triple damage to punch through half the DR (for the chinks) of your full coverage armor maybe there is some doubt, swinging a pool noodle at you probably doesn't constitute enough threat to justify deadly self-defense or anything similar.
People with drawn weapons might be innocent, but the evidence is leaning against it, particularly if they are deliberately threatening you with them or you know they are prone to violence in the first place.

Of course your comrade who is starting a fight isn't innocent in [either] sense, so yeah, tackling and perhaps even killing him and damn party cohesion is probably the right move for a guardian of capital G Good, though GURPS holy warriors aren't bound to quite as an insane a standard as D&D ones "officially" are.