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Old 01-07-2023, 01:35 AM   #11
corwyn
 
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Default Re: Distance for Hearing/Vision rolls?

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Originally Posted by thom View Post
Hmmm...I'm not so sure 'bout that. The orcs are moving at their normal speed, wearing leather armor, so that's not very loud. And I find the Hearing Range tables to be far less friendly for those who aren't exceptionally acute...

thom
And I'm not sure about that. Moving your full move is running, not walking, probably in heavy boots. Leather can squeak and scrape when you move quickly.
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Old 01-07-2023, 03:15 PM   #12
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Distance for Hearing/Vision rolls?

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Originally Posted by Lancewholelot View Post
A group of 10 orcs moving at a run, presumably with arms and armor... Unless the caravan camp is making a lot of noise I'd judge the guard likely to hear them rushing toward him before he could see them on an overcast night. Still, even with a shout of alarm, the assault would likely be on him before help was roused.
You'd think so, but the GURPS rules seem to disagree. I think they may be overly harsh on hearing, however - an average person has only a 50% chance to hear a conversation going on only a yard away from them.
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Old 01-07-2023, 07:48 PM   #13
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Default Re: Distance for Hearing/Vision rolls?

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You'd think so, but the GURPS rules seem to disagree. I think they may be overly harsh on hearing, however - an average person has only a 50% chance to hear a conversation going on only a yard away from them.
Wouldn't they get bonuses for distance, lack of stress, and lack of other loud noises, in most cases?
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Old 01-07-2023, 08:39 PM   #14
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Distance for Hearing/Vision rolls?

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Wouldn't they get bonuses for distance, lack of stress, and lack of other loud noises, in most cases?
Not for distance. The Speed/Range table doesn't give bonuses for being closer than 2 yards.

The others are up to the GM though an equivalent to the +10 for "In plain sight" might be most likely.
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Old 01-07-2023, 09:03 PM   #15
thom
 
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Default Re: Distance for Hearing/Vision rolls?

OK, so for Hearing, let's "borrow" the excellent rules from DFRPG. Remember the sentry's Perception is 12, and that's exactly what he rolled, for a net +0.

the Orcs are not using stealth; they're moving at Speed of 4.
Let's agree with corwyn that they're noisy enough to give, say a +4 bonus to hearing them.
Using the DFRPG rules, hearing is ‑1 at 2 yards, ‑2 at 4 yards, ‑3 at 8 yards, -4 at 16 yards, -5 at 32 yards, and -6 at 64 yards.

So with a Perception of 12 and +4 for additional noise; I'm figuring that means the sentry will hear the group of orcs 16 yards out...whereas he'll see the group - even with a -6 penalty for a cloudy night at 20 yards. Not really much of a difference...

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Old 01-08-2023, 01:13 AM   #16
Kaslak
 
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Default Re: Distance for Hearing/Vision rolls?

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OK, in my Fantasy campaign, I've got a Hearing/Vision contest coming up in my next session, and I want to do it right.
Situation: PC on night watch for a caravan, and a 10-man group of orcs (with Night Vision 5) is heading towards the PC for an attack.

the Orcs are not using stealth; they're moving at Speed of 4.
I'm figuring this gives a +2 on hearing them, accounting for the size of the group.
It's a cloudy night, so -4 to the PC's Vision rolls.
the PC is standing behind a torch, and doesn't have any Night Vision (I'm expecting they'll learn from this mistake-assuming they survive <eg>)

With a Perception of 12, and +2 for hearing based on group size, and -4 for a cloudy night; IF the PC rolls a '12' HOW FAR AWAY does he see or hear the orcs??

thom
For hearing rolls, as an alternative, you might consider also the alternative rules in Mysteries, making use of the SSRT instead of doublings.

The focus there seems more about recognizing the sound, and what a witness can describe, also based on his attention level, but I like to use them in general.
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Old 01-08-2023, 05:29 AM   #17
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Distance for Hearing/Vision rolls?

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Originally Posted by Prince Charon View Post
Wouldn't they get bonuses for distance, lack of stress, and lack of other loud noises, in most cases?
The Hearing rules work by giving the range at which the sound requires an unmodified Hearing roll to successfully hear it. For a normal conversation, 1 yard is that range - you'd only get a bonus for range if the people talking are closer than 1 yard (+1 at 1/2 yard, +2 at 1/4th yard, etc - which means a ~25% to fail to hear a conversation going on less than a foot away from you).

Lack of stress would be up to the GM, but if the character is getting such for Hearing, he or she should be getting it for Vision is well. I don't think "Night Watch at a camp in the wilderness, in an area with orcs" should count as low/no stress. Just hearing someone talking a yard away might get such a bonus, depending on the situation.

As for lack of other loud noises, I suppose that depends on what the GURPS rules are assuming as the default for when you're using Sense rolls (ditto for stress, above). If it's for in the middle of a pitched battle, then yeah, most situations are going to be at a bonus to hear things. But there are example rules both for using Hearing in the middle of a battle to notice an invisible enemy and rules for using Hearing to notice someone sneaking up on you outside of battle, and neither involve bonuses or penalties, making it hard to say.

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• Let's agree with corwyn that they're noisy enough to give, say a +4 bonus to hearing them.
Do note that indicates they are making roughly as much noise as an orchestra (100 dB), to be at +4 to hear at 1 yard.

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For hearing rolls, as an alternative, you might consider also the alternative rules in Mysteries, making use of the SSRT instead of doublings.
While I wasn't aware it showed up as an option in Mysteries, this is my preference for a lot of things in GURPS; so much goes off of SSR that the few cases where things don't (Area Effect, Enhanced Move, Hearing, part of the IT:DR/Vulnerability progression, etc) are a bit jarring.
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Last edited by Varyon; 01-08-2023 at 05:43 AM.
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Old 01-08-2023, 02:07 PM   #18
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Distance for Hearing/Vision rolls?

The hearing rules are sufficient nonsense that I recommend entirely ignoring them. I would start by just using the exact same base as is used for vision -- SSR applies normally, SM applies normally -- and just the situational modifiers are different (offhand, setting a modifier of +10 - background noise(db)/5 seems to produce reasonable results).
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Old 01-08-2023, 02:32 PM   #19
thom
 
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Default Re: Distance for Hearing/Vision rolls?

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The hearing rules are sufficient nonsense that I recommend entirely ignoring them. I would start by just using the exact same base as is used for vision -- SSR applies normally, SM applies normally -- and just the situational modifiers are different (offhand, setting a modifier of +10 - background noise(db)/5 seems to produce reasonable results).
Hmmm...interesting! How has this worked out in practice in your games? And how exactly could I use it in this scenario?

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Old 01-08-2023, 04:13 PM   #20
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Default Re: Distance for Hearing/Vision rolls?

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Hmmm...I'm not so sure 'bout that. The orcs are moving at their normal speed, wearing leather armor, so that's not very loud.
Hard/boiled leather or soft leather?

Hard/boiled leather makes rattling and scraping noises when you move at speed. Running in boots will make lots of noise if you're running on hard or muddy ground (thumping or splashing, respectively). If you're rushing through underbrush, that makes a fair bit of noise, too.
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