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Old 03-13-2011, 09:12 AM   #21
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Help a n00b - Wielding dual weapons

On the other hand, we do dual-weapon fighting with two short jukdo (shinai), and I find it suitably awesome against my single-weapon opponents. Definitely favors stepping into Reach C, tho. And the limited target location that is hwarang kumtoogi (which is kendo/kumdo plus the thighs) probably enhances that delta a lot.
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:20 AM   #22
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Default Re: Help a n00b - Wielding dual weapons

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Originally Posted by Exxar View Post
Since when is this legit? I remember it being said that you can use either Rapid Strike or Dual-Weapon Attack, but not both at once.
You're right Gef, it isn't legit. You can do Rapid Strike or DWA, but not both. In the aforementioned arena game, we had people doing 3-5 rapid strikes while I often kept to just the two of DWA. On the other hand, I'd maxed out my DWA technique (and I had Technique Mastery before our GM house-ruled TM away due to stacking abuse by our resident powergamer)...so I could to two attacks at really high skill...which, with the defenses the other players had, became really important. I could Decptive attack twice at -12/-6...that while attacking from not-shield sides or runaround attacks (I was very mobile), with the -1 to defenses from DWA, the -2 from runaround, and then the usual loss of DB...I could usually get between -9 and -11 on their defenses. It often wasn't enough always enough...HOWEVER...this led to the realization of another advantage of DWA. I wasn't using fatigue to pull off my multi-attack combo. Sure I only had two attacks. But I could absorb the 6 incoming rapid strikes through my high fencing parry and dual weapons (multiple shield blocks have a much higher base penalty and they stack up quickly). And they almost always used a lot of fatigue on that maneuver. They also almost always had to use fatigue to boost defenses against my deceptive attacks. I generally tried to reserve my fatigue use for Giant Steps for runarounds.

So I could usually dance around my rapid-striking, or heavier fighters and tire them out through their own fatigue use.

Then I could get through their defenses.

Of course, I was a low strength/low armor fighter...so if they hit me once, I was usually out of the match.
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:28 AM   #23
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Default Re: Help a n00b - Wielding dual weapons

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Originally Posted by trooper6 View Post
(and I had Technique Mastery before our GM house-ruled TM away due to stacking abuse by our resident powergamer)
Care to enlighten on the specifics?
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Old 03-13-2011, 11:09 AM   #24
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Default Re: Help a n00b - Wielding dual weapons

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Originally Posted by roguebfl View Post
But a common house rule is to allow Dual Weapon Technique (Rapier/Main-Gauche) which would let you fight with the combo... how ever will not help you fight with twin forms.
It's RAW as DF 11.
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Old 03-13-2011, 11:27 AM   #25
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Default Re: Help a n00b - Wielding dual weapons

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Originally Posted by Kuroshima View Post
It's RAW as DF 11.
Right RAW for DF games anyhoo.
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Old 03-13-2011, 11:42 AM   #26
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Default Re: Help a n00b - Wielding dual weapons

Ulzigoroth, generally if you were allowed to carry a sword in Early Modern Europe, any one handed sword would do, with occasional rules on the length of weapons and whether you could carry a dagger as well.

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
On the other hand, we do dual-weapon fighting with two short jukdo (shinai), and I find it suitably awesome against my single-weapon opponents. Definitely favors stepping into Reach C, tho. And the limited target location that is hwarang kumtoogi (which is kendo/kumdo plus the thighs) probably enhances that delta a lot.
I've often thought that GURPS would benefit from a way to represent how a weapon is limited as soon as it crosses another one. Suddenly, strikes and grapples with anything other than that weapon get a slight advantage (unarmed strikes, pummeling, pushes, and grapples are suddenly an option). But it would be hard to fit into the abstract GURPS combat model.
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Old 03-13-2011, 11:51 AM   #27
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Default Re: Help a n00b - Wielding dual weapons

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Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
Ulzigoroth, generally if you were allowed to carry a sword in Early Modern Europe, any one handed sword would do, with occasional rules on the length of weapons and whether you could carry a dagger as well.


I've often thought that GURPS would benefit from a way to represent how a weapon is limited as soon as it crosses another one. Suddenly, strikes and grapples with anything other than that weapon get a slight advantage (unarmed strikes, pummeling, pushes, and grapples are suddenly an option). But it would be hard to fit into the abstract GURPS combat model.
A penalty to an attack that follows a defense, or a defense that follows an attack (of your own) would work.

it will muck with the GURPS assumptions about what you can do on your turn, though. If you parry with your weapon, you suffer (say) a -4 to your next attack if you use that same weapon. If you've attacked with that weapon, you take a -2 penalty to parry that turn using the weapon.

It probably nerfs combat pretty hard, though, and it would require a lot of re-think.

As you can probably tell, I just used the same penalty for "mutiple parries with a fencing weapon" (p. B376) and made it universal.
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Old 03-13-2011, 12:28 PM   #28
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Default Re: Help a n00b - Wielding dual weapons

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Care to enlighten on the specifics?
Well, what he'd do, was this--TM: Low Fighting, TM: Spinning Strike (Staff), TM: Counterattack. All of which he had maxed out at +4. So, he'd wait until you attacked, then he'd parry...with a Staff at the skill he had it, it was not difficult for him to do.
Then he'd do this:

1. Crouch as a free action.
2. Make a Low Fighting, Spinning, Counterattack...Rapid Strike. We all had a skill max. of DX+10 in that game. So let's say his base skill was Staff-22 (though it might have been higher). Then he adds +12 (+4 for each of those maxed out techniques) giving him a skill of Staff-34 to work with. He was also an Ogre...so he had lots of FP to spend on Flurry of Blows. And then he'd bust out a 10 strike Rapid Strike. That would be, -60 for for 10 strikes, cut in half for Flurry of Blows, cut in half for Weapon Master...for only -15...which ends up being Staff-19...ten attacks...from an Ogre. And that is going to get through your defenses...or if somehow you were able to Retreat+parry/dodge/block all of those (highly unlikely especially considering the sheer number of strikes)--you probably had to burn a lot of fp on Feverish Defense to do it...and if you aren't an Ogre, you probably have a lot fewer fp that he does.
3. Then he'd step closer to counter your retreat and then stand up as a free action.

Our GM saw this as a problem of stacking Technique Mastery. But actually, I think the problem is not with stacking Technique Mastery, but with Crouching. Crouching can be done twice as a free action on your turn if you don't do more than a step (at the beginning to crouch, at the end to un-crouch). Crouching also doesn't have any defense penalty or retreat restriction. So with the Low-Fighting technique there is no downside, and with the TM, there is only a positive.

Compare crouching to kneeling. With kneeling there are defense penalties, you can't retreat, and you can't kneel and unkneel in one turn. Crouching...no downside.

Rather than getting rid of TM, I think I'd exclude crouching from being covered by Low-Fighting. But yeah...that guy was scary. What defeated him? A Hand-Clap Parry expert came close...but it was eventually a Minotaur in an unarmed combat that killed him.

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Originally Posted by Kuroshima View Post
It's RAW as DF 11.
pg. 13 if anyone wants to look it up.

But here is a question (that I don't have an answer for, so it is an honest question, even if it may not seem like it). Is DF RAW for the rest of GURPS? I mean, they have a number of unique rules and rules systems that contradict the rest of GURPS. For example, you have to choose a Profession and you can't choose power-ups from a different Profession--or as DF11 pg 17 says: "Every Dungeon Fantasy template effectively has hidden features that grant access to capabilities that are off-limits to most people while excluding traits that are normally accessible to anyone. For instance, the wizard template doesnít list the Fit advantage; therefore, Fit isnít a standard wizard power-up, despite being quite mundane."

Not allowing mages to take Fit because it isn't in their template...that is not RAW for general GURPS. Heck DF11pg 10 notes: "Similarly, power-ups are exceptions practically by definition. They regularly interpret existing traits cre- atively or make judgment calls that might go another way under different circumstances. These calls and interpretations are peculiar to individual power-ups, and arenít for Dungeon Fantasy in general." Which implies a lot of what is in DF11 may not even be RAW for DF.

So...yeah...I'm uncertain about the going from DF back to GURPS rules wise. Anyone have insight on this topic?
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Old 03-13-2011, 12:36 PM   #29
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Default Re: Help a n00b - Wielding dual weapons

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Originally Posted by trooper6 View Post
...Then he adds +12 (+4 for each of those maxed out techniques) giving him a skill of Staff-34 to work with.
This may be correct, but it strikes my internal warning bell. The techniques don't add to everything, just what you can do with THAT technique. It's not a generic bonus to all skills for all things. It might be a case where the way you're using it, it might as well be such a bonus, but I'd look carefully at the construction of such, since if you start with Staff-22 and have three techniques at +4, what you have is three techniques at 26, not one uber-skill at 34.

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But here is a question (that I don't have an answer for, so it is an honest question, even if it may not seem like it). Is DF RAW for the rest of GURPS?
I'd say "no." Not just "no," but "heck, no." I be Sean agrees. . .DF is a hack (a wonderful hack) at the GURPS rules for fun genre emulation. But outside that genre, many of the decisions and modifications would be terribly inappropriate.
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Old 03-13-2011, 12:38 PM   #30
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Default Re: Help a n00b - Wielding dual weapons

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Originally Posted by trooper6 View Post
But here is a question (that I don't have an answer for, so it is an honest question, even if it may not seem like it). Is DF RAW for the rest of GURPS? [...]
So...yeah...I'm uncertain about the going from DF back to GURPS rules wise. Anyone have insight on this topic?
There are General Rules which you can use in any game, then the are Genre specific rules which only apply to games in that genre.

DF is a Genre book series. and a Genre the often does not play nice with other genres when it comes to power levels.

and it not just DF that like this, with Technomancer, the rule for Helstroms only apply to that setting, so you don't use them whenever someone uses a nuke, nor do nuclear reactor spontaneous generate demons out side of the setting. Though many people do port the depleted necrioum rule for Missle Shied/Reverse Missles.
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