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Old 02-27-2024, 06:20 PM   #1
Michael Thayne
 
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Default When did demons get free immunity to mind control?

Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 5: Demons says (under "Demonic Minds Are Alien", p. 5):
Demons are influenced by spirit-manipulating spells from the Necromantic college – whether cast by a cleric, demonologist, necromancer, shaman, or wizard – instead of by Mind Control spells. This is a tradeoff, not an
advantage. The GM may make exceptions if this seems un-fun . . . but be warned that allowing, say, Loyalty, Charm, or Enslave to dominate demons goes against the spirit of Summon Demon, which portrays controlling demons as risky at best.
Later, while talking about possible immunities demons might have, the same supplement says (p. 16):
Some earlier supplements note Immunity to Mind Control, but this is largely redundant: Demons aren’t subject to Mind Control spells, a mere feature because they are subject to powerful Necromantic spells that bind or repel spirits...
While the point about Summon Demon makes sense, I was recently surprised to notice that this seems... kind of like a new thing in Demons? Magic says only that (p. 133):
As a rule, if there’s a specific spell for the purpose of controlling a creature (Control Zombie, Control Elemental, etc.) it cannot be affected by Mind Control spells.
There's explicitly no Control Spirit specialty for demons. Summon Demon does exist, but it's not entirely obvious it should be in the same category as Control (Creature Type). Meanwhile, Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game seems pretty explicit that Mind-Control spells affect demons unless otherwise specified, saying "Some other beings – notably many demons! – are explicitly immune to mind control" which seems to imply they are subject to it unless explicitly immune (Spells p. 53).

I'm not even saying Demons is taking the wrong approach here, but it does strike me as kind of odd. However, it occurs to me there might be precedent for this that I'm simply failing to find. Can anyone shed some light on this?
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Old 02-27-2024, 06:30 PM   #2
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Default Re: When did demons get free immunity to mind control?

They have Immunity to Mind-Affecting Magic [30]; in GURPS Magic (p155); I can't track down my older books at the moment but I'm pretty sure that goes back to 3e and likely before.
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Old 02-27-2024, 07:18 PM   #3
Michael Thayne
 
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Default Re: When did demons get free immunity to mind control?

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
They have Immunity to Mind-Affecting Magic [30]; in GURPS Magic (p155); I can't track down my older books at the moment but I'm pretty sure that goes back to 3e and likely before.
I'm not talking about that one specific demon template, I'm talking about demons as a general class of beings.
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Old 02-27-2024, 09:12 PM   #4
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: When did demons get free immunity to mind control?

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Originally Posted by Michael Thayne View Post
I'm not talking about that one specific demon template, I'm talking about demons as a general class of beings.
Demons first appear in Gurps Fantasy 1e from 1986. The text from Fantasy appears to be cut-and-pasted to Gurps Magic 1e.

There was no "template" as such. Those were far in the future. Instead Demons had a series or random roll tables for their Traits and a wide variety of demons were presumed to be covered within those tables possible permutations. The tables were expanded in Gurps Grimoire.

Demons were not given Immunity to Mind control but the text did say that they were automatically successful in resisting _any_ Spell resisted by IQ. Note there was no separate "Will" trait at that time. There were no psionic powers in Gurps until Horror 1e in (it looks like) 1987.

Crossover hints came a good bit later than that and i can not tell you off-hand "demons" written up like PCs came along but it was a good bit later.

I seem to remember when it did happen Demons were given Immunity to iMind Control using Gurps Supers rules.

So your answer would be "then" if I could pin down exactly when "then" was. Probably more than 30 years ago anyway.
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Old 02-27-2024, 11:09 PM   #5
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Default Re: When did demons get free immunity to mind control?

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Originally Posted by Michael Thayne View Post
I'm not talking about that one specific demon template, I'm talking about demons as a general class of beings.
That isn't a 'specific' demon template, it's an example showing traits that should be present.

Dr Kromm has been a fan of classes of mind (where creatures are immune to 'normal' mind control but are subject to other classes of control effects) for quite a while, though not sure when it was made explicit, the only equivalent in the basic rules is digital mind.
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Old 02-28-2024, 10:24 AM   #6
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: When did demons get free immunity to mind control?

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
That isn't a 'specific' demon template, it's an example showing traits that should be present.

Dr Kromm has been a fan of classes of mind (where creatures are immune to 'normal' mind control but are subject to other classes of control effects) for quite a while, though not sure when it was made explicit, the only equivalent in the basic rules is digital mind.
There's also regular empathy not working on spirits, so you need spirit empathy instead.
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Old 02-28-2024, 11:04 AM   #7
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Default Re: When did demons get free immunity to mind control?

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There's also regular empathy not working on spirits, so you need spirit empathy instead.
The entire category of Influence Skills doesn't work on any Spirit unless the user has Spirit Empathy (and the same for Animals and Plants without appropriate Empathy). Presumably that's the "alien mind" thing.
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Old 02-28-2024, 12:34 PM   #8
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Default Re: When did demons get free immunity to mind control?

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
That isn't a 'specific' demon template, it's an example showing traits that should be present.

Dr Kromm has been a fan of classes of mind (where creatures are immune to 'normal' mind control but are subject to other classes of control effects) for quite a while, though not sure when it was made explicit, the only equivalent in the basic rules is digital mind.
Anything with Indomitable works this way.
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Old 02-28-2024, 02:21 PM   #9
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Default Re: When did demons get free immunity to mind control?

There's a bit of a parallel with Indomitable, which basically amounts to "immune to influence unless the influencer has a special ability" (with Animal/Spirit Empathy being the most prominent examples).

It's reasonable that "immune to one special ability but subject to another special ability that doesn't work against most characters" is a wash.
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Old 02-28-2024, 04:05 PM   #10
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Default Re: When did demons get free immunity to mind control?

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Anything with Indomitable works this way.
No, Spirit Empathy isn't a counter to Indomitable.
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