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Old 10-04-2020, 01:17 AM   #11
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Nerfing Dual-Weapon Attack and maybe Rapid Strike.

My apologies, you are right, I was only looking at maximum velocities. Faster punches are possible, we are just talking about average human capabilities with good training and experience. The fastest recorded sustained punching rate is 900 punches per minute (15 punches per second), which is an average duration of 0.067s and a maximum velocity of 36 m/s (though the punches alternate, that rate only allows for a rest period of 0.067s per arm between punches).

Dividing the average duration by (Basic Speed ÷ 5) would probably be realistic, meaning that the maximum realistic velocity would be 43.2 m/s (Basic Speed 9.00) while the maximum cinematic velocity would be 57.6 m/s (Basic Speed 12.00). In any case, very fast thrusting attacks are quite realistic, it is just that more than two attacks per second are unlikely to be accurate. Then again, 15 punches per second are possible, so perhaps certain 'cinematic' abilities are not cinematic, at least for non-combat purposes.
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Old 10-04-2020, 04:56 AM   #12
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Nerfing Dual-Weapon Attack and maybe Rapid Strike.

The time taken by an attack itself isn’t the only factor here - rather, it’s that plus the time to setup the attack plus the time to recover from the attack and reset. A haymaker probably involves a comparable or higher velocity compared to a jab, but takes a lot longer to setup and recover/reset.

The idea of reduced damage from making more attacks in a given amount of time makes a good deal of sense, and indeed it may be appropriate to have it scale with the number of attacks (probably following SSR - 70%, 50%, 30%, 20%, etc), particularly considering how effective Multi-Weapon Attack is for characters with more than 2 arms. However, this does have the problem that it arguably is too much of a penalty when combined with the attack penalty. Perhaps make the DWA/MWA penalty -3 and the penalty for RS/combinations -4 per attack?
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Old 10-04-2020, 06:35 AM   #13
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Nerfing Dual-Weapon Attack and maybe Rapid Strike.

Jabs are much faster than haymakers, the difference is the amount of the mass that an individual devotes to their punch. A jab is going to have only the weight of the arm behind the punch while a haymaker will also add the upper-body weight behind the punch. The force of a haymaker is higher than the force of a jab, but that is a function of lower speed (probably 12 m/s versus 24 m/s) but much greater mass (probably ten times the mass).
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Old 10-04-2020, 07:09 AM   #14
Terranaunt
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Default Re: Nerfing Dual-Weapon Attack and maybe Rapid Strike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
Take boxing for example

If GURPS believes that the classic boxing move is a Rapid Strike, and you believe it's not realistic... I'd personally choose GURPS opinion.
It is not a Rapid Strike, it is a Combination.
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Old 10-04-2020, 08:07 AM   #15
MrFix
 
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Default Re: Nerfing Dual-Weapon Attack and maybe Rapid Strike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terranaunt View Post
It is not a Rapid Strike, it is a Combination.
If I quote the book saying it's Rapid Strike, you're not arguing with me, you're arguing with GURPS Martial Arts. Consider what that implies. Combination is a technique to buy off rapid-strike penalty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Baughn View Post
But a DWA doesn't do the same damage as one attack under the current rules. It does twice that damage. At a minimum, that means you should need twice as much momentum. Someone making a DWA is putting a lot more energy into their attacks than someone making one attack which does the same damage. If you fall and take 3 damage to your leg, that is less damage than if you take 3 damage to your leg and 3 damage to your arm. It should take more force to do more damage.
DWA does not do twice the damage. It gives you an extra attack. Which can miss. And which can have a bad damage roll.

The movement of the body adds momentum to both strikes. Then the movement of each limb adds momentum to each strike separately. Striking one-handed, your second arm doesn't do anything. Striking two-handed allows your other arm to swing independently AND capitalize on body movement. Increased number of impacts doesn't require linear increase in power for them to deal damage.

Normal Body Movement to create initial momentum + Normal One Handed Attack = Impacting damage
DWA: Normal Body Movement to create initial momentum + Normal One Handed Attack + Normal One Handed Attack = x2 Impacting damage
Rapid Strike:
Movement to create initial momentum + Normal One Handed Attack = Impacting damage
Swift reset
Movement to create initial momentum + Normal One Handed Attack = Impacting damage
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Last edited by MrFix; 10-04-2020 at 08:15 AM.
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Old 10-04-2020, 09:42 AM   #16
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Nerfing Dual-Weapon Attack and maybe Rapid Strike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
If I quote the book saying it's Rapid Strike, you're not arguing with me, you're arguing with GURPS Martial Arts. Consider what that implies. Combination is a technique to buy off rapid-strike penalty.
I don’t think anybody’s arguing against what is RAW, but rather if the RAW is appropriate. I think it’s fine for the mildly-cinematic default of GURPS, but a “gritty realism” option wouldn’t be out of place.

Quote:
DWA does not do twice the damage. It gives you an extra attack. Which can miss. And which can have a bad damage roll.
In the case both hit, on average you double the damage.

Quote:
Normal Body Movement to create initial momentum + Normal One Handed Attack = Impacting damage
DWA: Normal Body Movement to create initial momentum + Normal One Handed Attack + Normal One Handed Attack = x2 Impacting damage
So... you do or do not agree that it’s double damage? Also, I should note the above is probably more accurately written as something like
Body + Arm + Weapon = Impact
vs
(Body + Right arm + Right weapon) + (Body + Left arm + Left weapon) = Double Impact
Given equivalent arms and weapons, for (Double Impact) = 2x(Impact), you have to double count Body in the latter case. Given Body realistically has roughly the same total contribution in both cases, splitting it between the attacks would be necessary, which is what OP’s suggestion does.

Again, this would be an optional (house)rule for those who want more of a difference between, say, using a two-handed weapon and two one-handed weapons.

Quote:
Rapid Strike:
Movement to create initial momentum + Normal One Handed Attack = Impacting damage
Swift reset
Movement to create initial momentum + Normal One Handed Attack = Impacting damage
The issue here comes down to that “swift reset.” Is it appropriate to manage that after a full-power attack, or do you need to put less power into the initial strike? I can see it going either way - or even both, say if you give the option of full-power at -6 to each or reduced-power at -4 to each.
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Old 10-04-2020, 10:02 AM   #17
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Nerfing Dual-Weapon Attack and maybe Rapid Strike.

Yes, they are realistic. When a highly trained and exceptional martial artist can punch 15 times per second in real life, I would argue that the DWA and Rapid Strike rules are probably too conservative.
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Old 10-04-2020, 10:11 AM   #18
Terranaunt
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Default Re: Nerfing Dual-Weapon Attack and maybe Rapid Strike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
If I quote the book saying it's Rapid Strike, you're not arguing with me, you're arguing with GURPS Martial Arts. Consider what that implies. Combination is a technique to buy off rapid-strike penalty.
You are right indeed, I am not arguing with you, for you are not even doing that.

When a book tells me that a boxer (considering he is professional, skill 12 as per p.172 Basic) favors making attacks at effective skill 6, I prefer to use my own judgement.

Mindlessly quoting rules-as-written and telling people to go argue with the book is usually called 'being a rules lawyer'. Consider what that implies.
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Old 10-04-2020, 10:32 AM   #19
MrFix
 
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Default Re: Nerfing Dual-Weapon Attack and maybe Rapid Strike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terranaunt View Post
You are right indeed, I am not arguing with you, for you are not even doing that.

When a book tells me that a boxer (considering he is professional, skill 12 as per p.172 Basic) favors making attacks at effective skill 6, I prefer to use my own judgement.

Mindlessly quoting rules-as-written and telling people to go argue with the book is usually called 'being a rules lawyer'. Consider what that implies.
Considering it's totally possible to make AoA (Determined) Rapid Strike, Telegraphic Attack or at least committed attack, it's totally possible to make strikes with effective Skill of 8,10,14. Two attacks with effective skill of 8, 10, or even 14, are more reliable than 1 attack at effective skill 12, especially if the enemy can't parry more than one.

What to take from this is that the book was written by the people considering all the options at the time, via theorycrafting, playtesting, etc. That's why RAW is largely more viable than personal experiences - you can trust SJG to output high quality content, and the content is ready made for deployment. So when people argue with the book, it's usually not from the position of having properly studied and analyzed the concepts present.
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Old 10-04-2020, 10:51 AM   #20
Donny Brook
 
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Default Re: Nerfing Dual-Weapon Attack and maybe Rapid Strike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
I think that people are underestimating the speed of a melee attack. Let us consider a basic punch. The average male human has a 1.2 meter extension plus retraction,
I'm well above average size and my arm from shoulder to knuckle is 32".
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