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Old 02-28-2024, 04:10 PM   #11
Michael Thayne
 
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Default Re: When did demons get free immunity to mind control?

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
No, Spirit Empathy isn't a counter to Indomitable.
There was confusion about this in the Template Toolkit: Spirits playtest, and I'm really hoping the final manuscript will clarify it.

Back to the main theme of this thread, I maybe should have tagged this thread with [Dungeon Fantasy], since that's really where the concept of "Demons" as a distinct class of being becomes important. Whatever the story is there, it's definitely not a story that takes place in the 3e era.
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Old 02-28-2024, 04:34 PM   #12
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Default Re: When did demons get free immunity to mind control?

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
No, Spirit Empathy isn't a counter to Indomitable.
It's not a universal counter, but it's a counter in specific cases.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basic Rules p60
You are impossible to influence through ordinary words or actions. Those who wish to use Influence skills on you (see Influence Rolls, p. 359) must possess a suitable advantage: Empathy (p. 51) if you are a human or similar being, Animal Empathy (p. 40) if you’re a beast, Plant Empathy (p. 75) if you’re a plant, or Spirit Empathy (p. 88) if you’re a demon, ghost, etc.
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Old 02-28-2024, 04:50 PM   #13
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Default Re: When did demons get free immunity to mind control?

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It's reasonable that "immune to one special ability but subject to another special ability that doesn't work against most characters" is a wash.
But what is the counterbalancing ability that demons are vulnerable to in exchange for immunity to Mind Control? There is explicitly no "Control Demon" spell, as there is for animals and elementals.
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Old 02-28-2024, 05:01 PM   #14
Refplace
 
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Default Re: When did demons get free immunity to mind control?

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Originally Posted by Michael Thayne View Post
There was confusion about this in the Template Toolkit: Spirits playtest, and I'm really hoping the final manuscript will clarify it.
Hopefully we see tomorrow!

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Originally Posted by ravenfish View Post
But what is the counterbalancing ability that demons are vulnerable to in exchange for immunity to Mind Control? There is explicitly no "Control Demon" spell, as there is for animals and elementals.
Depends on the magic system in use, but in several of them Control Spirit or a varation works.
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Old 02-28-2024, 08:30 PM   #15
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Default Re: When did demons get free immunity to mind control?

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Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
Depends on the magic system in use, but in several of them Control Spirit or a varation works.
Or the Exorcism skill.
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Old 02-28-2024, 08:32 PM   #16
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Default Re: When did demons get free immunity to mind control?

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Originally Posted by Michael Thayne View Post
Th
Back to the main theme of this thread, I maybe should have tagged this thread with [Dungeon Fantasy], since that's really where the concept of "Demons" as a distinct class of being becomes important.a.
I would have to describe this position as an illusion based on a very limited perspective. From the beginning, be that the beginning of Gurps or only the beginning of DFRPG the game's intent has been that you can't get around the difficulty of controlling demons with a Mind Control spell.

If your concern is only that demons need to _pay_ for that on their character sheets reverse "Divine Curse" into "Infernal Blessing" and charge whatever you want. For npcs how much isn't important. For PCs you've established that it comes from a source that won't do business with them. Uber-demons are more likely to use Mind Control on humans than grant them immunity from those spells.

If you don't like that there's still the "alien minds" aspect and most animals are immune to Mind Control but vulnerable to Animal Control Spells(which humans in turn are immune to) and it's not given a point cost on their templates.
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Old 02-29-2024, 02:16 PM   #17
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Default Re: When did demons get free immunity to mind control?

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
No, Spirit Empathy isn't a counter to Indomitable.
I'm not sure what larger point you are making, but it is.

Quote:
Spirit Empathy
(p. 88) if you’re a demon, ghost, etc.
If you're a demon, Spirit Empathy will overcome Indomitable.

This is kind of a tangent from the OP, but different classes of minds are definitely baked into the rules here and there. Since I probably wouldn't build mind control with Accessibility (not demons), I would assume the relevant immunity goes on the demon character sheet.
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Old 02-29-2024, 02:34 PM   #18
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Default Re: When did demons get free immunity to mind control?

Hopefully the entry on Indomitable in TT:Spirits, p. 8 makes some of this more clear.
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