How many goblins can you take in a fight -- or: size modifiers and realism

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Humans ARE big enough to trample. The OP is talking about 2' combatants. You only need to be 2 SM larger than your enemy to trample - humans are 3 SM bigger. Humans are HUGE compared to these guys.

You're right, though the rules for slams may be under-helpful for single-hex humans. I'm not sure exactly how that works, even on re-reading.

Actually, it's only the slamming that's really an issue, on re-assessing. Even the 4' specimens are short enough to auto-trample if you knock them down and overrun, which is the only way you should be doing any trampling anyway.

So what I'm not sure is whether a human can just plow into a crowd of goblins, and what that looks like in Maneuvers.

[mhd]

Originally Posted by Bruno

The OP is talking about 2' combatants.

Well, that would probably be the most extreme point (pixes etc.). Kobold, gnomes, goblins, halfling are more in the 3' - 4' range. Not sure whether a "free" trample is appropriate, especially considering that bipedal humans usually don't stomp over a big enough area while moving in a normal manner -- Irish dancers excepted…

[mhd]

Originally Posted by aesir23

If I were fighting/hunting a creature with 2-4 times my mass, I would rely on ranged weapons from hiding, augmented by traps, poisons, and many friends.

Well, it's not just about mass (TWSS). If you're as strong as that creature, things might look different. Maybe gnome fighters all think of themselves as diminutive John Carters.

Goblins, kobolds etc. actually do often fight in the more cowardly manner presented. Although you do have the option of going into melee with them, without a 100% certain conclusion. Always assuming they let you.

[Apache]

Yes!!!

Somebody else remembers Tucker's Kobolds!!

:)

[Verjigorm]

What about nets and weighted ropes or chains? I mean, thrust damage for small guys pretty much sucks: 1d -1 or 1d depending on how much variation they have. Swing isn't much better. Reach is terrible, and most long weapons are too heavy to use. But something like a rope dart from Martial Arts is within their reach, and importantly, and be used by teams to entangle a human with multiple combatants pulling on you than one.

Entangle the feet, you force a DX check to stay standing. Do it multiple times, and the brutes are bound to fall. Loop the hand with the dart(-4 to parry!) and then your buddy tosses a net on the fellow: no parry or block, he'd better hope he's got a good dodge. If you can, get a loop around his neck and try to strangle him: he's at -5 to that, and that means even a ST6 or 7 little guy can effectively oppose ST 11 or 12. If you happen to ride a big wolf of similar critter, teach it how to pull for you and you suddenly have a dangerous combination.

Once you net'em or get'em on the ground, it's swarm! Immobilize them, and then bring up some fellas with big meaty weapons to pound on the immobilized target.

ST 6 or 7 guys are really limited by weapon selection: spears are still too heavy to use, and your thrust damage is abysmal. The combination of the two means that you're just not that dangerous with spears or stabby swords. Infact, anyone with more than DR2 is going to shrug most of your hits off, and you're not going to blunt trauma them.

Now, if you do make small guys DX12 or so racially, then they can eat 2 points of penalty for using a weapon outside their strength, which puts things like the knobbed club in reach, and if he uses it in a defensive grip, your ST7 goblin would be swinging 1d! For a small guy, that's a big deal, especially against mailed opponents(who are going to laugh at your spears and arrows) who must respect the swing of a two-handed weighted club into their squishy parts.

This is kind of why I really see the potential of weighted chains/ropes, nets and clubs. Play to your strengths, not your weaknesses.

[Trachmyr]

Using the LT rules for scaling, here are some typical weapon stats for dimunitive characters. It can help give you an idea where weaknesses really begin to show up.

Size Mod.	Ht.	Warrior ST	Sword (Thr/Swg)		Spear (2H)	Mace		2H Axe		Large Knife (Thr/Swg)	   Longbow
SM +0		6'0"		12	1+1i/1+3c  R:1		1+2i  R:1-2	1+5cr  R:1	1+6c  R:1,2	1-1i/1+0c  R:C/C,1	   1+1i  Max:240
SM -1		4'6"		9	1+0i/1+0c  R:1		1+0i  R:1-2	1+1cr  R:1	1+2c  R:1,2	1-2i/1-3c  R:C/C,1	   1+0i  Max:180
SM -2		3'0"		6	1-3i/1-2c  R:1		1-2i  R:1	1-1cr  R:1	1-1c  R:1	1-4i/1-5c  R:C/C,1	   1-3i  Max:120
SM -3		2'1"		4	1-4i/1-4c  R:C		1-4i  R:C-1	1-3cr  R:C	1-2c  R:C,1	1-6i/1-7c  R:C/C	   1-4i  Max:80
SM -4		1'6"		3	1-4i/1-4c  R:C		1-4i  R:C-1	1-3cr  R:C	1-3c  R:C,1	1-6i/1-7c  R:C/C	   1-5i  Max:60
SM -5		0'11"		2	1-6i/1-5c  R:C		1-5i  R:C-1	1-4cr  R:C	1-4c  R:C,1	1-7i/1-8c  R:C/C	   1-6i  Max:40
SM -6		0'7"		1	1-6i/1-5c  R:C		1-6i  R:C	1-5cr  R:C	1-5c  R:C	1-7i/1-8c  R:C/C	   1-6i  Max:20

With this, my suggestions for tactics would be:

SM-1: Your not really that bad off, though a bit weaker, you can still get fair damage compared to SM+0, especially from thrust/imp weapons. Your reach doesn't suffer either, a Spear & Shield would seem optimal (A spear does the same damage for you whether 1H or 2H). Be concerned about slams & overruns, as you'll likely be knocked prone & suffer trample. While you shouldn't neglect armor, you want a Move that is a bit better than typical SM+0 soldiers. Look at lighter armors, and perhaps Lifting ST. Cheap versions of plate & Mail (or butted mail) might be in your price range. So, use speed & range for best effect, counter your lessened damaged with carefully called strikes. Use caution - Evalute, All out Defense (or Defensive Attacks), Feint & Counterstrike... then follow-up with a mighty blow to a weak spot, while staying out of reach of foes. If using a shield + Spear, look at the rules for Focused Defense in MA:Gladiators.

SM-2: The only real chance you have is to capatilize on typical warriors weaknesses. Reach weapons aren't an option, and damage is pathetic w/o risky manuevers. Shields will likely be destroyed after a hit or two, and your weapons are so light they will often break on parries. If you have to engae in melee, I'd reccomend a reversed grip shortsword in Close Combat... you'll negate your opponet's shield, often force him to suffer penalties on attacks or make him switch to smaller & less damaging weapons. Go for the legs, feet & knees and put him on the ground as soon as possible. Consider the use of Techniques for Slip & Sideslip (suggested Defensive Techniques in MA)... be mobile and focus on dodge. All Out-Defense (Dodge) allows half movement, retreat with a slip into the opponet's hex or a sideslip to set up a runaround for a back attack. Taget the weakest area to stun or put your opponent prone... backs of knees, feet and groins are good choices. If you can manage to get a ST7 and a fine short-sword, with a reversed grip you can deal out 1d of impaling damage (or 1d cutting with a standard grip on a short-sword sized falchion). But you're going to have to be a dodge monkey, to avoid tramples and attacks that will destroy your gear if used to parry or block. While I suggest an SM-1 character to be cautious, at SM-2 be fearless. Even use grapples (especially if you have sharp teeth), while the big guy will likely break free, that takes a turn, and until he does so he's at further penalty to hit... Acrobatics is also of good use to boost dodge, and consider basing feints off of acrobatics... even taking Extra Attack with Acrobatic Feints Only for -x%. So rush/tumble in, climb on his back, and stab your opponent in the kidney repeatedly.

SM -3 or Lower: Melee is simply not an option, and weapons are useless. Stealth, ranged attacks and poison are the name of the game. Consider Blow-Guns as the damage isn't ST based... and pick up a copy of Pyramid 3-33 Low-Tech to make them scary.

[mhd]

First of all, thanks for the informative post. I was thinking about how hard I want to stick to D&D-like height ranges, and think I'll up them a bit, so that most of the small folk will end up as SM-1, not SM-2…

Originally Posted by Trachmyr

SM-1: Your not really that bad off, though a bit weaker, you can still get fair damage compared to SM+0, especially from thrust/imp weapons. Your reach doesn't suffer either

Is that the case? From B19, "Dwarfism (-1 SM)": "In combat your reach is reduced by 1 yard"

[Landwalker]

Originally Posted by mhd

Is that the case? From B19, "Dwarfism (-1 SM)": "In combat your reach is reduced by 1 yard"

Dwarfism isn't the same thing as simply being smaller—compare, for example, Tyrion Lannister to a larger hobbit like Meriadoc Brandybuck.

Low-Tech Companion 2 has rules for scaling down weapons by SM. The reach multiplier for SM-1 is 0.9, and since you round up from 0.5 and greater, Reach for SM-1 is pretty much almost universally unchanged.

One advantage that can be had for stronger (ST 9-10) SM-1 characters is that their armor weighs a lot less than SM+0 armor (64%, in fact). This can allow them to get a lot more bang for their encumbrance.

[Anders Gabrielsson]

I think what was mentioned upthread about mounts is an important point. Being smaller than the other guy matters less if you can ride something that's bigger and heavier than he is. (Even a 2' goblin should be able to use a lance with reasonable effectiveness with supports and such, once you get him up in the saddle.) At least in D&D goblins are often portrayed as riding all kinds of odd creatures - wolves (dire or regular), spiders etc.

[mhd]

Originally Posted by Landwalker

Dwarfism isn't the same thing as simply being smaller—compare, for example, Tyrion Lannister to a larger hobbit like Meriadoc Brandybuck.

Ah, okay, I wasn't sure what's part of the general SM rules and what's specific to Dwarfism. If I remember correctly, not all kinds of genetic mutations that are classified thus result in short limbs, although it seems to be the more common case… Good news for the party's gnome.

Right now I think that basically every small creature in the D&D & co. creature catalog would probably be ranked as SM -1, as they tend to be quite hardy and/or stocky and 3' is more the lower limit of size. Kobolds (especially the more lizardy 3E version) might go as low as SM -2. They have to compensate that with a lot of traps and higher numbers. With a reasonably good armor, most of their melee weapons shouldn't penetrate. On the other hand, with crossbows, atl-atls and relative size modifiers, kobold hunters should better be decked out in full coverage protection.