relative size modifier

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by damon

I see the grab and smash box, and the bit about using long weapons in close combat... is there anything else i'm missing?

Check out the Armed Grapple Technique MA67, and Choke Hold MA69...both of those can be used with a Weapon. They are also Techniques that are part of the Dagger Fighting Style.

Originally Posted by damon

which makes the addition of relative rules pretty much just bad news for the bigger gentleman, doesn't it.

Not really. Without the Relative rules, your Big Knife fighter gets a +1 to grapple your small gal. With them he gets a +2.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by trooper6

No need to get snippy. Just don't use the rules in DF if you don't want to.

I disagree. I think here is a need.

IMO, a generic, universal game should come equipped to handle weapons for characters of different sizes. I don't have DF, and I don't like when fundamental game rules are hived off into special purpose supplements. And this seems to be happening more and more.

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

IMO, a generic, universal game should come equipped to handle weapons for characters of different sizes. I don't have DF, and I don't like when fundamental game rules are hived off into special purpose supplements. And this seems to be happening more and more.

But rules generally aren't confined to one book. They are repeated as necessary in later books. What isn't being done is rewriting the Basic Set every time a new rule comes about, and when Basic was written there probably wasn't anything they were willing to put in and call in sufficently generic. Anyway there'll probably be a revised edition at some point.

I'll also point out the Tech books have rules for modifying the sizes of equipment, and off the top of my head I don't think they correspond perfectly to the ones in DF. Of course, DF's small tool rules are specified as unrealistic.

[damon]

so is there general consensus that a sm +2 character attacking an sm -2 one would have -4 to hit that character with a melee attack and +4 to hit them with a grapple, or is there any reason to think taht the -4 to hit would also be applied to the grapple having it net out to 0?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by damon

so is there general consensus that a sm +2 character attacking an sm -2 one would have -4 to hit that character with a melee attack and +4 to hit them with a grapple, or is there any reason to think taht the -4 to hit would also be applied to the grapple having it net out to 0?

The latter possibility doesn't seem to have any support, and it would require unusually awkward writing in the rulebooks.

There does appear to be at least uncertainty as to whether you should get +4 to hit with a grapple, as opposed to getting +4 to most grappling related rolls other than the initial grab. If the +4 doesn't apply to the initial grab, the -4 probably does.

[baakyocalder]

Originally Posted by trooper6

No need to get snippy. Just don't use the rules in DF if you don't want to. I've run many a game without it and everything was fine. This doesn't mean that the Basic is broken or that DF is necessary.

With GURPS it has always been that the Basic rules are just that. The basics. Then, if you want, you can go pick up more specialized books and incorporate the extra rules there...or not. There are a LOT of extra rules and rules changes in Martial Arts, but that doesn't make the combat rules presented in the Basic set faulty...and it doesn't make Martial Arts required for play.

The basics give a baseline, and then indications about outliers. SM-6 and SM+6 people are not really baseline. So there are some rules about them in the Basic, and more in the DF line...which, as a Dungeon Fantasy line often deals with creatures such as Pixies and Giants...so you can go there if you are interested in some enhancements to what was presented in the Basic set.

An alternative to using those GURPS rules if you need a variety of sizes fighting each other is to go back to AD&D's sizing modifiers. A giant could easily be ganged up on by a bunch of fairies. How many creatures were grappling gave a bonus to the roll as well as the relative size difference.

If you really want to get into how weapons impact different size characters, then you'd probably have to go the HackMaster route, which had a different damage for each weapon for each size category from Tiny (your small house cats and bats) to Garguantuan (another over 50' in size, which included dragons). Which meant you needed one weapon for dragon killing, one weapon for orc killing and one weapon for pixie killing if you wanted to be optimal in laying the smack down on those foes.

There is also the GURPS Gulliver fan site, which tried to cover different sizes of everything.

I don't expect the Basic Set to cover everything. GURPS 3e introduced material in genre-appropriate books far more than GURPS 4e has. I remember Contacts being a little different in a number of books. The size modifier information could easily be put in a 4e Revised, but it's not one of those make-or-break oversights for me.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by baakyocalder

I don't expect the Basic Set to cover everything. GURPS 3e introduced material in genre-appropriate books far more than GURPS 4e has. I remember Contacts being a little different in a number of books. The size modifier information could easily be put in a 4e Revised, but it's not one of those make-or-break oversights for me.

True that no rules can cover everything. No author(s) can think of everything and no publication can contain everything.

It's also true that 3e was a worse offender than 4e has been so far.

But I guess what gets me is that there is a remedy available if SJG would only take it.

All they need to do is publish stand-alone e23 updates of core-rules type stuff as it becomes available. So when they figure out weapons vs character size or similar rules of general application, those of us committed to the system but not a particular genre can access the critical element without the impedimenta of a book of no value to us.

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by baakyocalder

I don't expect the Basic Set to cover everything. GURPS 3e introduced material in genre-appropriate books far more than GURPS 4e has. I remember Contacts being a little different in a number of books. The size modifier information could easily be put in a 4e Revised, but it's not one of those make-or-break oversights for me.

Basic rules for dealing with SM are in the Basic books. B19, B372, B402, B550. It covers combat penalties, Vision penalties, Reach, grappling, buying ST/HP cheaply, penalites to Basic Move...all sorts of things.

Dungeon Fantasy adds some extra info about weapons for Big and Small creatures...but note that those rules are not generic or universal...which is why they are in Dungeon Fantasy and in the Basic set.

The Basic set, RAW, seems clear. Absolute value for attacking people, Relative value for Grappling people. The one debate that people have is if we should house rule it and say that attacking people should be relative as well.

[damon]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

The latter possibility doesn't seem to have any support, and it would require unusually awkward writing in the rulebooks.

There does appear to be at least uncertainty as to whether you should get +4 to hit with a grapple, as opposed to getting +4 to most grappling related rolls other than the initial grab. If the +4 doesn't apply to the initial grab, the -4 probably does.

that's what i was referring to hence 'hit them with a grapple'.. i guess that could have been a little more clear.. but i am concerned about the initial grab.

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by damon

that's what i was referring to hence 'hit them with a grapple'.. i guess that could have been a little more clear.. but i am concerned about the initial grab.

I say go with what it says in the book on 402. The bonus does apply to the initial grab...further more the bonus is relative.

Quote: A giant with SM+3 gets +2 to the upper end of reach--a weapon with reach 2-3 has a reach of 2-5 in his hands! If he grapples a human (SM0), he gets +3 to hit. He gets no bonus to grapple another giant.

It says right there, you get your relative SM bonus to hit in a grapple.