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Old 07-21-2018, 03:18 PM   #41
Agemegos
 
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Default Re: Gates, Gate keys, and Gate locks

That seems pretty thorough, and I think it is worth the column-inches.
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Old 07-21-2018, 03:21 PM   #42
zot
 
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Default Re: Gates, Gate keys, and Gate locks

What about a gate which only allows people approved by currently on-duty "gate sentry" in the gate room?

How about one which only allows someone whose name is in the most recent "gate authorization book" signed by Frozleboz And having been in the gate room at some time?

A gate which allows people who satisfy a rule specified by the gate attendant?

A gate which allows people which another gate, specified by the gate attendant, would allow?
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Old 07-21-2018, 03:40 PM   #43
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Default Re: Gates, Gate keys, and Gate locks

What if a thief dresses as a woodsman or a wizard?

Or are you saying the gate can recognize learned Talents?
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Old 07-21-2018, 04:17 PM   #44
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Default Re: Gates, Gate keys, and Gate locks

I made some suggestions about gates here...

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...0&postcount=39
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Old 07-21-2018, 06:22 PM   #45
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What if a thief dresses as a woodsman or a wizard?

Or are you saying the gate can recognize learned Talents?
That was what I meant with the comment about the character sheet. Too silly? Too meta?
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Old 07-21-2018, 06:26 PM   #46
Steve Jackson
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What about (some reasonable things and some exercises in logic)?
If I had a player as interested as you, the end result would probably be a couple of pages of house rules, called the Liber Portorum or something of the sort. But I *know* that you can come up with cases like those faster than I can one-shot consistent replies. Do you have a general solution?
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Old 07-21-2018, 06:33 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
I made some suggestions about gates here...
This takes us straight back to Nivenesque perpetual motion by teleportation.

The "free energy" problem is the big one to me and is solved, I think, by requiring the plane of the Gate to be aligned with the vector of local gravity.

I wrote a monster called the Gate Spider which spins webs that make Gates. It will be posted one of these days.

I would like Gates to remain one of those things where the standard wizard texts don't have all the answers. Leaving GMs free to make interesting Gates: cool. Empowering IQ 18 rules lawyers to make interesting Gates that twist time, space, and economics: only funny once.
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Old 07-21-2018, 10:32 PM   #48
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This takes us straight back to Nivenesque perpetual motion by teleportation.

The "free energy" problem is the big one to me and is solved, I think, by requiring the plane of the Gate to be aligned with the vector of local gravity.
I'm afraid it's not — certainly not in principle, and even for the particular case of the teleporting rapid rock I have a dodge involving a ramp and a Grease spell. I'm afraid that to close off physics-busting applications of magic without imposing actual physical limitations would require a great deal of fussing around with pressure and fluid flow and the speed with which things come through Gates, and what counts as a "use" in terms of the 3d6 roll for Gate failure in the case of fluid flow and large hoops. And even then, it's hard for any single clever physicist not to be out-thought by a whole audience including a bunch of clever rules lawyers, some with physics degrees. There's a reason that the physical laws we actually have dictate a universe like the one we've got, complete with no wizards and no magic.

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I would like Gates to remain one of those things where the standard wizard texts don't have all the answers. Leaving GMs free to make interesting Gates: cool. Empowering IQ 18 rules lawyers to make interesting Gates that twist time, space, and economics: only funny once.
Yeah. Very much so.

May I suggest that it might be best to simply not set a challenge for us people? Don't try to beat us, just decline to play our game. TFT is a simple but fun fantasy game, and the way to have it remain simple and fun is to engage with it as a fantasy game. A "magic is physics" setting with all the alternative physics worked out and explained might be fun, at least for people like me and David Bofinger — but it won't be simple and it won't be [straight] fantasy. Detail attracts attention. If you put detail into the physics that will attract attention towards the physics — and away from the fantasy. Better, I think, would be to write "RULE ZERO: TFT is a simple, fun, fantasy game."

I don't think that TFT has room to include Niven's Theory and Practice of Teleportation as a footnote, besides which I never discussed it with a physicist who didn't laugh at Niven's attempts to conserve energy.
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Old 07-21-2018, 10:36 PM   #49
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That was what I meant with the comment about the character sheet. Too silly? Too meta?
It is a little too meta for what how I'd like them to work, because:

* they are giving perception powers to gates that I don't give to actual people, even talented ones. (There isn't even a spell for "Detect Talent", well, except Telepathy with permission. There also isn't one for "Analyze Attributes", and we preferred to try to avoid referring to attributes directly when in-character.)

* I'd like gate rules to be expressible verbally in-character by someone who doesn't think in terms of game stats. (So I'd be happy with "pass people who appear to have above-average strength" or "...who look stronger than me" or weight-based things, but not "ST 14" or measures of DX or IQ unless you set up a test they have to do and have them roll to do it.)

I think might be good if basically the gate were like a medium-IQ observer (or literally included a magic spirit) who can see, hear, and smell (and may have Mage Sight) and possibly can act as a metal-detector (or substance-type detector - maybe as something tries to pass, it can "taste" the surface of everything passing through, even under clothes and in containers... maybe it can even taste the interior of things due to its nature).

I tend to think I might like it to be fool-able by disguises, Conceal Spells (if the logic applies), and to be fallible (like someone casting a Detect Magic spell). i.e. I don't think I really want a Gate to come with a built-in ability to detect or analyze magic that is more reliable than a wizard casting a spell to do so.

Nor do I want it to be able to detect things that an observer can't, and that there are not even any spells for.


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This takes us straight back to Nivenesque perpetual motion by teleportation.

The "free energy" problem is the big one to me and is solved, I think, by requiring the plane of the Gate to be aligned with the vector of local gravity.
Well... it helps. Perhaps we should post that notion for some creative physicists e.g. on the TFT email list and phsyics.stackexchange.com and see what they can come up with for exploits.


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I wrote a monster called the Gate Spider which spins webs that make Gates. It will be posted one of these days.
Sounds good!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
I would like Gates to remain one of those things where the standard wizard texts don't have all the answers. Leaving GMs free to make interesting Gates: cool. Empowering IQ 18 rules lawyers to make interesting Gates that twist time, space, and economics: only funny once.
I'd like that too.

[howitzer]
I'd also suggest a line or two mentioning somewhere that GMs may want to have slightly altered versions of some spells to suit their tastes, and that a campaign might have variations of the same spell with different tradeoffs.

That would help explain how the GM's world has some existing gates doing something interesting yet it doesn't mean the Wizard's Guild's version of Create Gate allows that, perhaps because it was cast with a little-known version of Create Gate that even if you find a book containing it, you'll realize that version has other limitations.
[/howitzer]
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Old 07-21-2018, 11:10 PM   #50
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Default Re: Gates, Gate keys, and Gate locks

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
...
[howitzer]
I'd also suggest a line or two mentioning somewhere that GMs may want to have slightly altered versions of some spells to suit their tastes, and that a campaign might have variations of the same spell with different tradeoffs.

That would help explain how the GM's world has some existing gates doing something interesting yet it doesn't mean the Wizard's Guild's version of Create Gate allows that, perhaps because it was cast with a little-known version of Create Gate that even if you find a book containing it, you'll realize that version has other limitations.
[/howitzer]
Hi Skarg, all.
I agree with your post above, but I would like to emphasize the quoted section. I strongly agree.

In fact, a short paragraph like the one below might say... "It is known that magic worked differently long ago, and some artifacts, items, and gates have effects that no wizard now can reproduce. Such old magic is somewhat fragile."

This has 3 good effects:
-- It gives a sense of wonder, and counters somewhat 'industrial magic'.
-- It gets the GM's mind percolating.
-- It gives the GM an excuse to play with items which he or she would like to be different, from what is written in the books.

(The final sentence is an excuse to weaken or break the item if it causes problems.) ;-D

Warm regards, Rick.
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