Yrth "Shtick" and High TL

[CarrionPeacock]

After reading a post somwhere else, I got nostalgic about Banestorm and picked up the book again and after rereading it and some old threads, I was left somewhat confused:

First, what is the shtick of Banestorm/Yrth? As in, what were the goals of the authors when they set on to write about it? For example, Shadowrun is meant for players who wants to play sorcerers or elf samurais in a cyberpunk setting, Infinite Worlds is to adventure across several dimension and settings.

I always thought Yrth was not unlike Infinite Worlds, a setting to show the stregths of GURPS by allowing characters from any world to be played in the same fantasy world by virtue of the eponymous Banestorm. The authors seems to have gone through the painstaking process of defining what sort of changes would happen to a world with regular extradimensional immigrants, while going so far as creating plot devices such as the Ministry of Serendipity to forcibly keep technology stagnant through centuries.
In that way, while the setting can also be used as normal fantasy setting, playing Banestorm Victims, mainly from our world and its parallels, is a major shtick/feature of the setting and the book seems to agree with it (pages 235 and 236).

However, I noticed such characters are punished with a heavy burden of High TL 5 [25] + UB (Earth Immigrant) [10], pushing them quite behind natives unless they just happen to be highly trained professional fully kitted as if prepared to be picked up by the unknown and unpredictable banestorm. I agree modern people gone soft thanks to the material comfort of TL8 are not going to be as effective as the gritty natives but as the box in page 236 recognizes, usually such drawbacks are made up by hidden talents but the 35 points spent to represent its background eats up a significant chunk of points that could be spent this way, leaving the character potentially very ineffective compared to his "equals".
Even worse, the author seems somewhat hostile to the idea itself, calling it "masochistic" and claiming the setting is not really for this kind of characters, suggesting playing a dwarf with axe instead.

This left me guessing the identity of the setting. It breaks away from traditional fantasy setting by adding Banestorm Victims, but it's averse to that sort of characters. Was "standard fantasy but with Abrahamic religions" the goal?


My second question is much shorter, I seek clarification on this statement by PK:

Originally Posted by PK

In a TL3 world, the man with Physician/TL8 is a miracle worker, even without access to any of his equipment. In a TL9 world, Armoury/TL10 can let you make some significant enhancements to your existing weapons, even when limited to TL9 production equipment.

How would a Physician/TL8 be effective, at least mechanically, in a TL3 world? Without his TL8 equipment, he rolls at -10. TL3 equipment would reduce the penalty to -9. According to Kromm the average professional has their main skill at 12-13 range, so the penalties would mean they'd only succeed on criticals. Maybe the character could cobble together the equivalent of improvised equipment, reducing penalty to -5 but their chance of success would still be around 1/4. The best option would be to bring a TL8 equipment as Signature Gear (around 13 points) and ignore supply issues (and potentially magic being a better option)...
Similarly, a character with Armoury/TL8 would have significant equipment/supply issues and even if they solve this they'd still have to deal with the MoS if it's Banestorm. Doesn't this significantly hamper the utility of High TL advantage?

[Turhan's Bey Company]

My understanding of Yrth is that it's not nearly so coherent in high concept as you might like, and not a few of its quirks are a consequence of a long history and dialogue rather than simple ground-up world building.

The world of Yrth has been through several different hands over its existence and bears the marks of several rounds of revisions. It is, so far as I can make out, first and foremost supposed to be a fairly stereotypical fantasy gaming world. However, because it was created by SJ himself back in the day, it contains some of his particular bugbears, like dimension hopping/alternate history, real world religions in fantasy settings, and a lack of divine magic (see his other RPG, the Fantasy Trip, for other examples of all of those). The dimensional travel aspect notably provides justification for having cultures resembling those of Earth (the big, scary empire, vaguely East Asian peoples, clear Merrie Olde England analogs, etc.) without carrying the academic baggage of having to pay attention to actual history; they've developed from the same sources, which explains any similarities, but the Yrth cultures ended up in an entirely different world and developed separately, which justifies any differences.

However, the possibility of ongoing contact with other, higher-tech worlds raised questions among players. If there's a trickle of contact with higher tech worlds, how does Yrth remain so clearly Medieval-flavored? And so further rationalizations were introduced, like the Ministry of Serendipity. None of that was the point of the setting so much as measures introduced in response to player reactions to try to keep the setting more or less oriented towards the original goal, which is fantasy adventure as SJ imagined it back in the late 80s/early 90s, and balancing that with other demands, like wanting to at least nominally tie it in with the Infinite Worlds setting. Yrth, then, ultimately serves many masters.

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by CarrionPeacock

My second question is much shorter, I seek clarification on this statement by PK:

How would a Physician/TL8 be effective, at least mechanically, in a TL3 world? Without his TL8 equipment, he rolls at -10. TL3 equipment would reduce the penalty to -9. According to Kromm the average professional has their main skill at 12-13 range, so the penalties would mean they'd only succeed on criticals. Maybe the character could cobble together the equivalent of improvised equipment, reducing penalty to -5 but their chance of success would still be around 1/4. The best option would be to bring a TL8 equipment as Signature Gear (around 13 points) and ignore supply issues (and potentially magic being a better option)...
Similarly, a character with Armoury/TL8 would have significant equipment/supply issues and even if they solve this they'd still have to deal with the MoS if it's Banestorm. Doesn't this significantly hamper the utility of High TL advantage?

Well the advantages would be in the ideas they carry with them.

The whole thrust of the campaign might be reconstructing the practical steps (from memory a level or two of eidetic highly recommended here) to 'invent' vaccination, the earliest disinfectants, 'primitive' medical equipment. Certainly you will not be as effective as you would be at your native TL. But Medical Schools (another thing you will likely 'invent and define') will be praising you as long as that civilization lasts. You will be a giant that all future physicians will stand on.

Edit: Some GM's allow skill points to 'shift' over the career of a PC...so losing some of the practical Original TL skills (retaining theory) and shifting them to lower TL needs.

[CarrionPeacock]

That makes a lot of sense, I think it compleetely put my question to rest. Thanks!

Do you have any insight on PK's comment?

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by CarrionPeacock

That makes a lot of sense, I think it compleetely put my question to rest. Thanks!

Do you have any insight on PK's comment?

It likely would prove true for any Tech based skill where the difference in technology does not preclude any use of the skill.

i.e. Nuclear Engineer TL/8 going to a TL/3 setting. You will not be able to build the tools and infrastructure to ever be able to actually use that skill.

With an exception for a PC built on a minimum of high 3 digit low 4 digit points.

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by CarrionPeacock

That makes a lot of sense, I think it compleetely put my question to rest. Thanks!

Do you have any insight on PK's comment?

Well according to B425 TL6+ Physicians perform at TL6 without all the fancy equipment.

Originally Posted by CarrionPeacock

Even worse, the author seems somewhat hostile to the idea itself, calling it "masochistic" and claiming the setting is not really for this kind of characters, suggesting playing a dwarf with axe instead.

I believe it's worth noting that you're cutting out the context of the question, being, "What does a TL8 short order cook get out of the High TL 5 + UB (Earth Migrant)". A TL8 CPA is probably masochistic in most Yrth campaigns. If you're spending 35 points on advantages you don't use, you made a bad decision. The system won't rescue you from that. It's like taking the Elf character template and doing nothing with the talents, magery 0, or Unaging (though that's a different can of worms).

[CarrionPeacock]

Originally Posted by TGLS

Well according to B425 TL6+ Physicians perform at TL6 without all the fancy equipment.

Ah, perfect. That's exactly the detail I was missing, thanks.
Edit: As a follow-up question, would this extend to First Aid skill?

[whswhs]

One way to approach this would be to look at GURPS Fantasy: Portal Realms and treat Banestorm victims as having been taken to a portal realm. PR has some suggestions on handling traits that have no practical applicability in the portal realm.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by CarrionPeacock

How would a Physician/TL8 be effective, at least mechanically, in a TL3 world? Without his TL8 equipment, he rolls at -10.

And there's the problem. The fundamental fact about flat universal TL penalties is they do not, and cannot, make sense.

Realistically a modern physician in a TL3 world can pretty easily use stuff that is widely available in said world to perform most effective procedures that existed at TL5, and some that were introduced later, simply because he knows how. He isn't "at" TL3, or 5, or 6 or 8 or anything else, he's in a state that is realistically differently penalized for different lacks of equipment for each thing he would like to do, none of which have any relationship to "TL" - he'd suffer exactly the same penalties in his home world with the same lacks of equipment, they are just (sometime, theoretically anyway) more easily fixed at home.

[Stormcrow]

The shtick of Yrth is simply that it is a fantasy RPG setting, rationalized. Everything is given a reason for why it is that way. Fantasy settings tend to look a certain way, and Yrth is no different, but unlike most fantasy settings, it's not just a hodgepodge of folklore and literature and myth. Now feudalism and medieval technologies exist because they were imported wholesale from Earth.

It also looks the particular way it does, with high fantasy here, with chivalric fantasy there, with Arabian Nights fantasy elsewhere, with pirates and sea monsters down south, with Vikings and barbarians up north, to be an all-encompassing setting for generic fantasy. You can pick the type of fantasy you'd like to play, then set your adventures in the corresponding area. The style of the maps obscure the huge scale of the setting: Ytarria is slightly bigger than the United States in land area. You can play entire campaigns in just one of the fantasy areas and never need to migrate to another style of fantasy.

You don't need to pay attention to the continent-size issues or the ongoing effects of the Banestorm. You don't need to import characters from Earth or worry about higher TLs or anything like that. Very much in the style of GURPS, Yrth is there to be your one-stop setting for fantasy adventures.