[Powers] Duplication Limitation (Cannot all be in the same place at the same time)

[Seneschal]

So, I'm preparing a "weird ops" campaign - think The Company with dimensional shenanigans - and one character concept involved being able to split oneself, gear and all, but the two would automatically merge if observed at the same time. So, narratively, it's meant to be less of a double-trouble combat ability and more of a gadget in the spy's toolbox.

Mechanically, however, I'm having trouble defining this limitation. How much would you price it as?

[Christopher R. Rice]

If you see them together they re-merge, basically? -40% or so. It's useful for being in two places at once. And you can always arrange it so that you can't be observed because you are too distant.

[Celjabba]

Does the observer have to know they are the same people to force a merge ? If disguises works, the limitation will be a bit smaller.

What about supernatural entities that see everyone ? Depending on the world theology/mythology, the character may never split ...

[Seneschal]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

If you see them together they re-merge, basically? -40% or so. It's useful for being in two places at once. And you can always arrange it so that you can't be observed because you are too distant.

Yes, that's it exactly. However, distance can make the ability combat-viable, so long as one dupe is on overwatch with a scoped rifle, 300m away. I'd like to keep it useless in combat, so... (see below).

Originally Posted by Celjabba

Does the observer have to know they are the same people to force a merge ? If disguises works, the limitation will be a bit smaller.

What about supernatural entities that see everyone ? Depending on the world theology/mythology, the character may never split ...

Well, that's another can of worms, "what does it mean to be observed?" To keep the ability a non-combat one, I'd say that whenever a sapient being (so, err, let's ignore bacteria and omniscient cosmic entities for now) observes both dupes, even without recognizing them as the same person, or observes any phenomenon that betrays the presence of both dupes (say, one dupe is in close combat, while another shoots from 300m away), they merge. This prevents them from influencing the same situation, as long as someone is looking. Disguises and distance don't work - the one doing the correcting is reality itself, even without the observer noticing anything weird.

Otherwise, if the ability would be a bit more combat-viable, I would define the observer as any sapient being that succeeds on a Perception roll to recognize the two as the same person, as long as the roll has a penalty smaller than -10: so, if someone spots them both, but in the dark, from too far away, or from the back, it doesn't trigger a merge. Here, the one doing the correcting is the observer's sense of disbelief, like a paradox from Mage: The Awakening - you can work magic in front of muggles as much as you like, so long as they don't notice anything weird, but when they do, all hell breaks loose.

The second version would probably also give less of a discount.

[Andreas]

A -40% limitation would reduce the cost to significantly less than Extra Life. Even the version that give you no ability to have both dupes cooperate in combat is a much better advantage than Extra Life.

It does not only give you almost all of the benefits of Extra Life, but also allows gives you far more time to deal with non-combat tasks (such as work, learning skills and the "spy's toolbox" tasks mentioned earlier).

It being a 10% limitation (5% for the one that allows you to avoid merging by using disguises and distance) seems much more reasonable.

[Seneschal]

Originally Posted by Andreas

A -40% limitation would reduce the cost to significantly less than Extra Life. Even the version that give you no ability to have both dupes cooperate in combat is a much better advantage than Extra Life.

It does not only give you almost all of the benefits of Extra Life, but also allows gives you far more time to deal with non-combat tasks (such as work, learning skills and the "spy's toolbox" tasks mentioned earlier).

It being a 10% limitation (5% for the one that allows you to avoid merging by using disguises and distance) seems much more reasonable.

So, would you say that Duplication is generally underpriced? Because, by default, it gives you not only an Extra Life, but for a mere +10 points, double actions in combat.

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by Seneschal

So, would you say that Duplication is generally underpriced? Because, by default, it gives you not only an Extra Life, but for a mere +10 points, double actions in combat.

Yes, it seems somewhat underpriced to me (at least if you don't assume that the GM will be significantly more willing to kill of a dupe than a normal character). However not nearly as bad as "double actions in combat for just 10 points".

The Extra Life part and the extra actions can be seen as Alternate Abilities of each other, which greatly reduces the expected cost. Also while having extra actions from a dupe offers some advantages that Altered Time Rate don't, I would still rate ATR as significantly more valuable in combat. ATR among other things gives greater force concentration, better mobility, is a non-obvious trait until you start using it and unlike Extra Life does not need Telesend and Mindlink for perfect coordination.

[chandley]

Two dupes that will never be in the same combat does make an argument for looking at Extra Life pricing, as I believe the idea is that if your in combat person dies, your character lives on with the out of combat dupe.

Counter-arguments though are: Villains can force you to merge (kidnap one or both of you, etc) and then kill you, killing you and your "extra life". Extra Life itself is untouchable short of some really weird ass cosmic Static. Also, I feel Extra Life is overpriced compared to Unkillable 3 (No Unkillable 1 -33%, One Use Only 1/5). So I feel a case could be made for more than -10%.

In fact, I think unmodified Duplication is _primarly_ priced as a 100% Ally, Always available, that you control, rather than an Extra Life with enhancements for being available to do stuff. There is a minor price break for not being able to have different abilities from you, and a minor price bump for being under your control, but like Allies, the pricing is based on the expectation that all of you face death in adventures (as is apparently the justification for Allies pricing), and unlike an Ally, a Dupe (and the points spent on it) are gone when it dies (without enhancements), whereas an Ally lost through no fault of your own may be replaced, or the points recouped.

Given that, I dont actually object to a -40% "Cant be in the same combat" limitation, dropping to -20% "Cant be recognized as the same person" for option 2.

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by chandley

Counter-arguments though are: Villains can force you to merge (kidnap one or both of you, etc) and then kill you, killing you and your "extra life". Extra Life itself is untouchable short of some really weird ass cosmic Static. Also, I feel Extra Life is overpriced compared to Unkillable 3 (No Unkillable 1 -33%, One Use Only 1/5). So I feel a case could be made for more than -10%.

Kidnapping one dupe would not generally allow a villain to force you to merge (something like mind control might allow that, but Extra Life won't help much against being mind controlled either). Being imprisoned is probably overall a greater threat for someone with Extra Lives than for someone with dupes. There are some ways in which Extra Life is superior to Duplication, but it is also the case that Duplication in some respects offer better protection (for example Extra life requires you to "Work out the details with the GM" for how you managed to survive, while with Duplication you can have your dupe positioned at the place you want it).

Where are you getting the "No Unkillable 1 -33%" limitation from? As far as I know, there is no such official limitation. While Unkillable 1 costs one third of unkillable 3, a -33% limitation does not seem appropriate. The protection against death from Unkillable 1 is significantly less valuable if you have the resurrection abilities of Unkillable 2 or 3.

In fact, I think unmodified Duplication is _primarly_ priced as a 100% Ally, Always available, that you control, rather than an Extra Life with enhancements for being available to do stuff. There is a minor price break for not being able to have different abilities from you, and a minor price bump for being under your control, but like Allies, the pricing is based on the expectation that all of you face death in adventures (as is apparently the justification for Allies pricing), and unlike an Ally, a Dupe (and the points spent on it) are gone when it dies (without enhancements), whereas an Ally lost through no fault of your own may be replaced, or the points recouped.

Having complete control over ally is not something you get with a minor price bump. The Minion enhancement is not as good as that and it costs +50%. While dupes can't have different abilities, unlike for Allies, their character sheets are not hiddenly designed by the GM, which is a rather large advantage.

A Summonable Minion built on 100% of your point value and who is constantly available costs 60 points.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Seneschal

So, would you say that Duplication is generally underpriced? Because, by default, it gives you not only an Extra Life, but for a mere +10 points, double actions in combat.

Except of course the other actions are "what you can do while naked or using weapons of opportunity". There are usually two considerations when deciding whether an ability is underpriced.

The first is "Is it such a good deal that players adopt it much more often than is genre-appropriate?" Note that Combat Reflexes may be a great deal but that doesn't make underpriced because it IS something nearly every action hero has but not something every character in an action story has. But that doesn't apply to Duplication. Duplication isn't a munchkin-magnet because by default it's the power to be cannon-fodder. You can turn yourself into a larger number of inferior combatants, all of whom will be knocked for a loop if any one of them dies. Which is pretty likely considered that they'll usually be under-armoured through lack of equipment, lack of points or both. You have to actually work at making Duplication cost-effective.

The other of course is whether, if you raise the price, you'll be able to afford to make the characters using it at an appropriate price point for the setting. For example if I was doing a Sky High game, then I'd probably set a typical hero-track student at 500 points at least after they've got a year or two of training under their tights. Penny Lent works as a 250 point Acrobat with the power to turn into 8 cheerleaders. (Exactly what they need cheerleaders for is an open question considering they don't have intramural sports.) It fits. Jamie Madrox has good DR and tops out at a few dozen, but the New X-Men are more like a 1000 point setting. Raise the price of duplication and I think the only duplicator you could write to a budget is Duo Damsel.