Duplicates & Study Time

[B9anders]

I'd allow it.

This is basically what Madrox for a while, sending dupes all over the world to master kungfu, detective skills, spying, inner peace, priesthood, lawyering, etc. and then they'd come back so he could absorb the knowledge.

[spacemonkey]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

The problem with doing that is, that the result is two different characters and you generally only get to control one character.

Unless, of course, you buy duplication...

The whole point of duplication is to be in multiple places taking multiple actions. I can't see taking away a character's advantage because he tried to do what normal people do every day, just multiplied by his # of bodies.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by spacemonkey

Unless, of course, you buy duplication...

Duplication doesn't give you more than one character. It gives the same character multiple times.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Duplication doesn't give you more than one character. It gives the same character multiple times.

So the question is... how self-sufficient are the Duplicates?

I know this can be modified by Enhancements and Limitations, but would someone remind me of what the "default" is?

If a person has one mind that controls all extra bodies "en masse", a hive mind thing (or a person controlling the duplicates a bit like a player controlling all his characters in a RTS game), he might get a bonus to studying if having those extra bodies can directly contribute e.g. commanding duplicates to spar to observe it as a third party.

If each duplicate has enough autonomy to actually study, separate subjects are no problem, while the exact same subject I would just allow a small bonus. After all, two equally capable students receiving instruction in the same class room by the same teacher can get vastly different results. There are also times when "study" isn't a matter of gaining new information, but of practice.

If it becomes "abusive" it mostly seems to be a matter of tweaking the adventure and/or making sure all rules are being applied. Take the Jamie Maddrox example. Sending off each Duplicate to learn isn't abusive: Duplicates aren't that cheap, are they? Plus unless you purchase an enhancement, if one gets killed, you're out the points (and can't re-absorb it to gain the knowledge). His character also has to pay the in-setting relevant costs: I don't think he had a "secret" identity at that time, but if he did that would be a potential clue. He'd still have to pay individual expenses for each Dupe, and the more he spreads out the more it costs (and the more using things other than cash becomes an issue).

There is also the question of Duplicates becoming spontaneously "self aware". That is something that requires more in depth knowledge of the setting (and the metaphysics involved) as well as RAW, but doing a brain/body stimulating activity (e.g. studying), especially with long periods apart, seems like a recipe to cause a Duplicate to become self-aware.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Duplication doesn't give you more than one character. It gives the same character multiple times.

Studying a subject acquires memories. But then, merely existing as a separate character and taking separate actions acquires different memories, too. No Dupe will be exactly the same character once the two experience different timelines. What's special about one memory versus another?

This argument seems to rely on a metagame definition for "different" -- that which causes the character sheet to change produces a non-Duplicate. If you study enough to gain a skill point, you'd have to write that down on the Dupe's copy of the character sheet, and that would disqualify the Dupe from merging again. Different memories that don't cause changes in the character sheet get pooled when the Dupes merge, per RAW.

Learning can result in physical training as well. And of course, a separate timeline might result in physical changes, injury being the most obvious? What if a Dupe suffers a physical change? Wounds don't prevent merging per RAW, though the characters have become "different". Once again, we can appeal to the same meta-definition, and note that wounds don't cause CP changes in the character sheet.

So:

What if the Dupe studies 199 hours and then merges? Can the one character then study for one hour and pick up the skill point?

What if the Dupe acquires a physical Disad worth CP like One Hand, Bad Vision, etc?

What if the Dupe acquires a mental Disad, like a phobia or Bad Temper that is noted on the character sheet, thanks to some traumatic experience while separate?

If a character loses his Dupe to these effects, would the GM return CP (assuming teh GM returns CP for lost Advantages or gained Disads in the first place)?

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

If you study enough to gain a skill point, you'd have to write that down on the Dupe's copy of the character sheet, and that would disqualify the Dupe from merging again. Different memories that don't cause changes in the character sheet get pooled when the Dupes merge, per RAW.

While I regularly point out that I don't have access to 4e, until a few weeks ago I did have both Characters and Powers, and I don't recall this rule. This may simply be one of the many things I missed, but could you toss out a page reference for those that can look it up? This was not the standard I recall for the advantage. If it is actual RAW and I just missed it, then it is what it is, but I would disagree with it.

Besides more in depth technical analysis of how many things do alter your character sheet until you take actions to change them... this really doesn't seem relevant except as an arbitrary way of defining "significant change". It should be quite possible for significant change to happen without it affecting your character sheet: GURPS is detailed, but not that detailed. Interpersonal relationships or even self-revelation often don't carry a point value unless they correspond directly to a particular Advantage and/or Disadvantage.

A Duplicate becoming self-aware seems to depend on numerous factors; if a Super leaves one of his Duplicates "back home" to manage his civilian life, should learning anything "on the job" while the actual Super is away result in the Duplicate becoming self-aware and a separate character? Should the GM awarding the Super a reward after a successful mission (including Character Points) somehow force the Duplicate into being a separate character?

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Otaku

While I regularly point out that I don't have access to 4e, until a few weeks ago I did have both Characters and Powers, and I don't recall this rule.

AFAIK, there's not a rule that prohibits Dupes from re-merging (except for the case where a Dupe dies). I'm trying to take what I think is David Johnston2's point, and see where it leads. If you want a reason to deny Duplicators the extra study time, this might be the basis for it -- so let's beat the players to the questions that would arise.

this really doesn't seem relevant except as an arbitrary way of defining "significant change"

Exactly. Though "arbitrary" isn't quite the right word. If Duplicates can change to much to re-merge, you'll want a definition or guidelines for determining "too much". Otherwise, the decision really would be arbitrary each time. The main advantage of the "affects the CP on the character sheet" test is that it's relatively well defined compared to a phrase like "significant change". So, what would be the consequences of using that as the acid test?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Studying a subject acquires memories. But then, merely existing as a separate character and taking separate actions acquires different memories, too. No Dupe will be exactly the same character once the two experience different timelines. What's special about one memory versus another?

This argument seems to rely on a metagame definition for "different" -- that which causes the character sheet to change produces a non-Duplicate. If you study enough to gain a skill point, you'd have to write that down on the Dupe's copy of the character sheet, and that would disqualify the Dupe from merging again. Different memories that don't cause changes in the character sheet get pooled when the Dupes merge, per RAW.

Learning can result in physical training as well. And of course, a separate timeline might result in physical changes, injury being the most obvious? What if a Dupe suffers a physical change? Wounds don't prevent merging per RAW, though the characters have become "different".

And of course wounds are handled by dividing the damage by the number of duplicates.

[spacemonkey]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

I'm pretty sure that the rules don't allow you to have each of your dupes study different things, each gaining CP at the things they're training at the rate of 1 CP per 200 hour (more or less). Am I correct that the rules don't allow this?

I guess the same thing could apply to a character with levels of Compartmentalized Mind using each mind to study something purely mental (if the character has Clairvoyance and Telekinesis, he could even have each mind read separate texts and write separate notes).

If not, what's the explanation for players as to why they can't use dupes to study multiple things at the same time (in terms of some "in-game" reality)?

I don't think the rules disallow it, due to the fact that the super effort enhancements from powers/supers specifically ban study for atr and duplication, but the base advantages don't. If it can't be done anyways, you don't need to ban it when using super-effort to ramp up the effect.

There's also the fact that once you duplicate, there is no "prime" you, all your bodies are duplicates. So to deny the ability to study to duplicates means that duplication bars you from studying at all while it's active. Doesn't make sense, and isn't supported by the rules as far as I can tell.

If you don't like advantages multiplying unearned CP, that's perfectly reasonable and you should just make a houserule.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

AFAIK, there's not a rule that prohibits Dupes from re-merging (except for the case where a Dupe dies). I'm trying to take what I think is David Johnston2's point, and see where it leads. If you want a reason to deny Duplicators the extra study time, this might be the basis for it -- so let's beat the players to the questions that would arise.

Ah! Thank you for clarifying.

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Exactly. Though "arbitrary" isn't quite the right word. If Duplicates can change to much to re-merge, you'll want a definition or guidelines for determining "too much". Otherwise, the decision really would be arbitrary each time. The main advantage of the "affects the CP on the character sheet" test is that it's relatively well defined compared to a phrase like "significant change". So, what would be the consequences of using that as the acid test?

Unfortunately, I don't think there is an "easy" guideline. If we need to make one, then I'd just cause a risk of a duplicate "spontaneously awakening" if it gains X% more CPs. I go with a percentage because of course it will scale according to the campaign, and as we seem to agree this rule exists to avoid a player intentionally abusing the ability to jack up his own point values excessively. Exactly how much X should be is definitely open to debate.

"Excessively" is the keyword: how expensive is this particular character's duplicates? In 3e, base cost was 75 points per. In 4e, Update says it dropped to 35, but when I had both Characters and Powers I thought that was with Duplicates being a lot weaker than in 3e without paying for several Enhancements. While the "real you" is doing whatever, you can keep a dupe home and studying (or vice versa), but that means someone is going into danger "weaker" than point totals suggest, double paying for living expenses, etc. The studying duplicate will take about two years to "earn back" the CP invested int it as learned Skill points, and that is 8 hours a day every day.

Just make sure that you don't give the team a lot of down time to study skills if someone has like 10 duplicates, Doesn't Sleep, Doesn't Eat, Single-Minded, or whatever other Advantages still exist that would allow a sick level of stuy time. It is just like how you don't design a dangerous maze as the meat of an adventure when... everyone can fly over it, or teleport through it, or tunnel under it, etc.