Charlemagne's Paladins - roleplaying in the 8th century

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Gustavus Adolphus

Found.
The first is classified as "early brunia", the second hexagonal scale armor is classified as "late brunia". In the book there's specified that "brunia" could refer to both scale and mail armor. But the italian term for "mail" is "cotta di maglia", so "brunia" is the italian word for Dark Ages Scale Armor ("Armatura a scaglie" or "Armatura di scaglie" is the term for generic scale armor).

http://oi59.tinypic.com/2zplff8.jpg

I was after an actual find - a real hexgonal plate - or at least a contemporary illustration. Does he have a footnote to the archaeological report from where this illustration was derived or is it a fantasy drawing? A lot of Boccia's text seems to have been derived from 19th century works such as Viollet le Duc. The best book on this subject by a large margin is Claude Blair's.

[Gustavus Adolphus]

I don't think that is "fantasy": "fantasy" means "completely improbable". But there's the probability that the poor Mr. Lionello isn't too much competent. In every case human mind has projected functional armor ten times more strange than this, and some smart knights don't need Science in order to add eight-ten layers of linen in their aketon. That's why I'm not very surprised if I see one "conjectural hexagonal scale armor". Surely you're right about caution to insert some not-verified things in a true historical campaign.

In every case, it's possible that nobody knows "Padded Cloth thick enough to add DR" in 8th century Europe? GURPS Low-Tech considers "sheepskin with wool on inside" as "Cloth, Padded: DR 1, 6 lbs".

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Gustavus Adolphus

In every case, it's possible that nobody knows "Padded Cloth thick enough to add DR" in 8th century Europe? GURPS Low-Tech considers "sheepskin with wool on inside" as "Cloth, Padded: DR 1, 6 lbs".

Lighter protection was worn by civilians in civilian situations. I can't think of any examples of armour worn in battle that are less than DR3.

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...&postcount=275

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

I was after an actual find - a real hexgonal plate - or at least a contemporary illustration. Does he have a footnote to the archaeological report from where this illustration was derived or is it a fantasy drawing? A lot of Boccia's text seems to have been derived from 19th century works such as Viollet le Duc. The best book on this subject by a large margin is Claude Blair's.

You're right.

The hexagonal scale armor drawing is cited as "reconstruction from some hexagonal scale components", but in the book is specified that "every drawing of 12th century items o later ones are all based on archeological items". "Most drawing of 11th century items or early ones are based on iconographical pieces or reconstruction from partial archeological items".

I'm sorry for my past skepticism. My error :/

[DanHoward]

Scale armour made of hexagonal plates wouldn't look like that drawing anyway. The plates need to be overlapped.
http://th02.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/...lo-d4ra52y.jpg

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Scale armour made of hexagonal plates wouldn't look like that drawing anyway. The plates need to be overlapped.
http://th02.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/...lo-d4ra52y.jpg

But lateral and shoulder scales of this armor don't overlap at all.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Gustavus Adolphus

But lateral and shoulder scales of this armor don't overlap at all.

They aren't hexagonal either. That picture isn't real armour - it is a fantasy costume. I was just showing how a hexagonal scale construction would look - nothing like Boccia's drawing.

[Gustavus Adolphus]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...o_katabira.JPG

Isn't this hexagonal brigandine? I don't see overlapping.

PS: it's just a provocation. You're already right, sir, and I'm already sorry for my wrong interventions.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Gustavus Adolphus

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...o_katabira.JPG

Isn't this hexagonal brigandine? I don't see overlapping.

I already showed this to you earlier. It is a kikko or jack-of-plates. It is one of the few constructions where the plates don't overlap and has never been found outside of Asia. It isn't much good against anything other than sword cuts. Brigandines have overlapping plates just like scale armour.

[Þorkell]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Lower ranked fighters wore no armour at all. There was no such thing as cheap armour for poor fighters during this period. There was no such thing as cheap armour for poor fighters during most periods - even leather and cloth were reserved for the elite in most cases.

It isn't possible or plausible that the poor fighters looted armour from the battlefield and used in the next fight they were in? Or is this something that was out of the question for social reasons?