Charlemagne's Paladins - roleplaying in the 8th century

[Sword-dancer]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

We don't have the slightest idea what armour the varangians wore. .

Sorry, but i thought to remember, that those of the guard , wh´se armour weren´t up to the Standard got lamellar or scale from the bycantine armouries

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Sword-dancer

Sorry, but i thought to remember, that those of the guard , wh´se armour weren´t up to the Standard got lamellar or scale from the bycantine armouries

You see this argument made by SCA members to try and justify giving their viking personas lamellar armour instead of mail but there is no evidence to support it.

[Sword-dancer]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

You see this argument made by SCA members to try and justify giving their viking personas lamellar armour instead of mail but there is no evidence to support it.

any and ever varangian or other viking Trader could bought lameller in Bycanz, any other viking get one as a gift or bought it from a varangian Trader.

[The Colonel]

Originally Posted by Anders

Now, the vassi dominici sound interesting:

There are definite possibilities there.

Isn't this meant to have been C&P'd into the Arthurian tradition, leading to the various questing knight narratives?

[aesir23]

Have you given any thought to which Martial Arts Styles will be available?

At least the following:
Early Knightly Mounted Combat
Viking Spear Fighting (for all Germanic people, not just the Norse)
Sword and Shield Fighting
Combat Wrestling

Possibly these as well:
Belt/Jacket Wrestling (from Technical Grappling)
Dagger Fighting
Shortsword Fighting
Foot Archery

Additionally:
An Axe and Shield style (there are a few floating around these fora).
A Frankish style that includes Axe Throwing.
A Mounted Archery style (for Huns and others).
A Viking Long Axe Style (There's one on these fora somewhere).

Would any of the Roman styles survive? What about Celtic Spear Fighting?

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Sword-dancer

any and ever varangian or other viking Trader could bought lameller in Bycanz, any other viking get one as a gift or bought it from a varangian Trader.

Yep. This is exactly the argument that they make. It is the same logic that leads to highlander ninjas. It is no different to saying that Vikings could have visited Japan, trained in ninjitsu, and brought back some katanas. Real scholarship is performed using evidence, not childish speculation.

[Sword-dancer]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Yep. This is exactly the argument that they make. .... Real scholarship is performed using evidence, not childish speculation.

Okay then, could you prove me that the varangian Guard, the Traders other Vikings etc. never ever got equipped, bought, used, traded with bycantine armours?

True scholarship should consider that our knowledge has holes, we ´ve proof of things they´d, we ´ve not proof of all things they´d or not.

It is no different to saying that Vikings could have visited Japan, trained in ninjitsu, and brought back some katanas.

i didn´t know that katanas existed at this time or Ninjas.

We know the vikings travelled regurlarly to bycance , the mediterrean and traded, plundered ... in this area

[DanHoward]

i didn´t know that katanas existed at this time or Ninjas.

Using your logic this is irrelevant. You have to prove that they DIDN'T have ninjas. Again, using your logic, since they had steel and they had sword smiths, they obviously could have made katanas.

It is a logical impossibility to prove a negative. You need to do a basic course in history. It teaches the fundamentals of text analysis, argument formulation, and what actually qualifies as "evidence". Right now, based on the current evidence, the only reasonable conclusion is that there was no viking lamellar. If additional evidence is discovered in the future then the subject should be revisited.

[Not]

"Freaking kid, I do not need this! I have a master's degree in folklore and mythology!"

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Sword-dancer

Okay then, could you prove me that the varangian Guard, the Traders other Vikings etc. never ever got equipped, bought, used, traded with bycantine armours?

Just... think about it for a moment. The idea is that poor Vikings would have used Byzantine lamellar because they couldn't afford mail. This strikes me as a self-defeating proposition - transporting something all the way from the Byzantine Empire to Viking lands would be rather expensive, meaning such armor would carry a high price. This means there is no longer a monetary reason to choose lamellar over mail. Combined with an apparent lack of evidence of lamellar amongst Vikings and the like, the safest assumption is that they didn't wear lamellar.

Originally Posted by Sword-dancer

i didn´t know that katanas existed at this time or Ninjas.

The time period of Charlemagne is probably a bit early for tachi (which came before katana, but are only differentiated from them in the manner in which they are worn), but Vikings were around for a while after Charlemagne. It's difficult to tell when ninja showed up, but at least their precursors may well have existed at the same time as the Vikings. That's inconsequential, of course, as there's no evidence the Vikings ever visited Japan.