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Old 01-27-2023, 02:24 PM   #1
Farmer
 
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Default Taking a weapon after grappling it

Specifically, pistols, but I suppose any.

So normally if you grapple a weapon (using, say, Judo) if you want to take it away it's a Regular Contest of ST vs ST or ST-based Retain Weapon. There doesn't seem to be any skill or technique that you can substitute as the attacker. The general concept makes sense - strong people can hold onto their weapons, but it seems like I'm missing something (or the rules are) that you can't improve you chances of removing it beyond your basic strength (when you can for retaining it).

Corrections, comments, suggestions?
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Old 01-27-2023, 02:32 PM   #2
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Default Re: Taking a weapon after grappling it

Obligatory Technical Grappling/Fantastic Dungeon Grappling mention - with either of the above, you can leverage your unarmed skill to build up Control, then burn it to give yourself a bonus to the contest (TG also has a Grip CP mechanic, but Douglas Cole has come out stating he regrets including that, so I generally disregard it). Failing that, it seems like ST-based grappling skill, possibly at a penalty, would be an appropriate thing to roll against. If all else fails, you could potentially roll against your grappling skill as a Complementary Skill Roll to your ST roll, for a +1 or +2 if you succeed.
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Old 01-27-2023, 05:32 PM   #3
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Default Re: Taking a weapon after grappling it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Obligatory Technical Grappling/Fantastic Dungeon Grappling mention - with either of the above, you can leverage your unarmed skill to build up Control, then burn it to give yourself a bonus to the contest (TG also has a Grip CP mechanic, but Douglas Cole has come out stating he regrets including that, so I generally disregard it).
TG is a great idea to review, even if we don't go all out with it (but we might).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Failing that, it seems like ST-based grappling skill, possibly at a penalty, would be an appropriate thing to roll against. If all else fails, you could potentially roll against your grappling skill as a Complementary Skill Roll to your ST roll, for a +1 or +2 if you succeed.
And Complementary Skills is another good idea, with very high skill characters having a higher chance of a crit success, too.

Thanks - both exactly the kind of guidance I was after!
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Old 01-27-2023, 06:21 PM   #4
mburr0003
 
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Default Re: Taking a weapon after grappling it

I'd just float the 'grappling' skill to ST and call it a day. It's basically an unarmed disarm where you have the reward of holding their weapon if you succeed versus the risk of your hands being targets if you fail to their armed defense.


[EDIT]
in fact after reviewing the disarm rules, I'd just treat it as a disarm attempt with above reward and risk caveats. In this case the grappler is just taking that extra step of grabbing the weapon first so they'll have control over it after.
See "Knocking a Weapon Away" pg 401 Basic.
[/EDIT]

Last edited by mburr0003; 01-27-2023 at 06:26 PM.
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Old 01-28-2023, 12:51 AM   #5
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Default Re: Taking a weapon after grappling it

A basic but risky pistol disarm is a direct Wristlock/Disarm combo. It appears to be taught by a number of martial arts.

This is a trained attempt to take control of a weapon using a Quick Contest of Disarm (Karate) vs. the defender's DX weapon skill or Retain Weapon maneuver (see Knocking Weapons Away, p. B401). While RAW suggests a -5 penalty to attack a pistol, I'd assign a -4 penalty because you're actually attempting to control your foe's wrist and hand.

I'd also suggest that the -2 penalty to Disarming doesn't apply for Karate-based disarm attempts, and that the attacker should have the choice of knocking the weapon away or grabbing it following a successful attempt. Success by 2+ in the Quick Contest means you can grab the weapon as part of the disarm. Critical success means that not only do you have the weapon in hand but you also simultaneously Ready it if it can normally be Readied in just 1 turn.

Swatting a pistol or similar weapon aside so it's out of line should be handled as a Parry attempt but should be allowed proactively, before the gunman fires, as long as the defender is within Parry range at the beginning of his turn.

(It's a Parry rather than a disarm because, by definition, it's an attempt to avoid being hit by an attack using a defending body part or melee weapon. By definition, if you successfully Parry the gun misses you. If you miss your Parry you're at the gunman's mercy and he can roll to hit normally unless you chose All-Out Defense and can still Dodge. Normally, GURPS does attack first, defense second, but in this case, you just swap the order.)

I've seen (and sort of practiced a few times) a fancy Kali combination for handgun disarms. It's safer than the standard pistol disarm because you're constantly keeping the gun barrel pointed away from your body. If you want to be truly badass, you can finish the routine standing behind your foe, with their gun readied in your dominant hand, and them acting as a meat shield while you hold them in an armlock using your off-hand.

You start off with a redirect of the gun barrel & wrist grapple from the inside of your opponent's arm using your off-hand. (Kali/Escrima/Arnis loves circular moves pushing from the center of the body outward to the sides or front.) Simultaneously, you step into close combat and deliver some sort of arm strike with your dominant hand (e.g., elbow strike or punch).

The next step is to turn the wristlock into an arm bar/armlock while you push the gunman's arm upward in an arc while you step under his arm and to his gun hand side. Since his arm is forced up while you crouch down the gun's muzzle aims over your head. You then swap hands so your dominant hand controls the gunman's gun hand and your off-hand bars his elbow and forces his body forward and down. The final step is to use your dominant hand to twist the weapon out of his hand.

The optional last step has you taking the gun in your dominant hand, readying it, and stepping fully behind your foe, with their arm fully twisted into the armlock and serving as cover between you and any other bad guys.

It sounds really complex, but the moves are all so fluid you can actually do them all in 2-3 seconds with the vital gun redirect in the first moments of the attack. It's very similar to Kali "siniwala" knife disarm maneuvers.

It's impressive as hell and probably workable in real combat if you're in great physical shape, have lots of athletic talent, and practice the combination relentlessly. That is, great for Navy SEALs or professional martial artists, not so great for out-of-shape & geeky civilians.

This routine would load up the bonuses to Disarm using the attacker's ST relative to the defender, putting the attacker in a wristlock/armlock (or sufficient Control Points if you're using Technical Grappling), and any Shock or Stun penalties the victim might be experiencing from the hand or elbow strike.

It should also be possible to swap hands during Close or Unarmed Combat as long as both hands are going for the same body part or weapon. Treat this as a Free Action, but it requires an extra Judo, Karate, or Wrestling skill roll to do the exchange properly. Roll vs. the lower of your weapon or Karate skill to exchange a balanced one-handed weapon like a knife or baton between your hands as you move. This trick is crucial to Kali and other fluid martial arts which use circular arm movements, and I don't remember seeing it in Martial Arts.

Last edited by Pursuivant; 01-28-2023 at 01:02 AM.
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Old 01-28-2023, 01:12 AM   #6
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Default Re: Taking a weapon after grappling it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Obligatory Technical Grappling/Fantastic Dungeon Grappling mention - with either of the above, you can leverage your unarmed skill to build up Control, then burn it to give yourself a bonus to the contest (TG also has a Grip CP mechanic, but Douglas Cole has come out stating he regrets including that, so I generally disregard it). Failing that, it seems like ST-based grappling skill, possibly at a penalty, would be an appropriate thing to roll against. If all else fails, you could potentially roll against your grappling skill as a Complementary Skill Roll to your ST roll, for a +1 or +2 if you succeed.
There's also the option with technical grappling to grapple the hand (fingers) of the opponent you're trying to take the weapon of, rather than grappling the weapon itself.

This is for example in the recently released October 2022 bodycam footage what we see David DePape's left hand do to Paul Pelosi's left hand, after grappling the hammer itself fails to dislodge Paul's grip.
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Old 01-29-2023, 10:35 AM   #7
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Default Re: Taking a weapon after grappling it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
There's also the option with technical grappling to grapple the hand (fingers) of the opponent you're trying to take the weapon of, rather than grappling the weapon itself.
That's exactly what I was talking about for karate-style weapon disarms. The rules in the Basic Set are focused on melee combat and don't take unarmed combat into account.

The human hand is faster and more flexible than any melee weapon, so the -2 penalty for disarms shouldn't apply to unarmed disarm attempts. Furthermore, every weapon disarm starts with controlling either the attacker's weapon hand or weapon arm rather than the weapon itself. This might be different if you're attempting to disarm someone carrying a two-handed staff-like weapon or a long gun, however.

Often, you start with a wrist or arm lock and use positional advantages gained from that move (Control Points if you're using Technical Grappling) to twist the weapon out of your opponent's hand.

Another factor in just about all karate weapon disarms is that the attacker is relying on raw speed and surprise to reverse a situation where the weapon wielder starts with control of the tactical situation. In GURPS terms, the disarmer is going for tactical Surprise, hoping that the opponent will be Mentally Stunned for a second, allowing an All-Out Attack, or at least have lower Basic Speed.
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Old 01-30-2023, 07:54 PM   #8
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Default Re: Taking a weapon after grappling it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
That's exactly what I was talking about for karate-style weapon disarms. The rules in the Basic Set are focused on melee combat and don't take unarmed combat into account.
You are both wrong and right.

It's... look, unarmed isn't a ranged attack, so it's treated as a melee attack right along with armed attacks. Except when it's separate (the Unarmed combat section), so you can just use the rules in Basic, pg 400 (bolding mine):

Quote:
Knocking a Weapon Away
A strike to disarm is an attempt to knock or twist the weapon out of your foe’s grasp without damaging it. Only a weapon that can parry can attempt to disarm, which limits disarming to unarmed attacks, melee weapons, and certain thrown weapons.
It further states that the -2 doesn't apply to fencing weapons and since Karate and Judo have the fencing rules applied to them, I'd apply the same ruling to them for disarming.

Now, you're right in that it should be addressed distinctly in the Unarmed Combat section, but Basic pretty much does covers it if you hunt around a bit.
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Old 01-31-2023, 12:16 AM   #9
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Default Re: Taking a weapon after grappling it

Interesting thing to note... based on that "only a weapon that can parry" note, originally in Basic Set you could only disarm using your unarmed hand attacks...

But as of Martial Arts introducing the Leg Parry, now you can also disarm using a kick?
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Old 01-31-2023, 02:21 AM   #10
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Default Re: Taking a weapon after grappling it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Interesting thing to note... based on that "only a weapon that can parry" note, originally in Basic Set you could only disarm using your unarmed hand attacks...

But as of Martial Arts introducing the Leg Parry, now you can also disarm using a kick?
Since you're not taking the weapon, just knocking it away, I don't see why not. It's certainly a trope of movies to kick a gun out of someone's hand, and that's basically a leg parry. However, it would have to meet the normal requirements for leg parry.
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