mechanics of dream fantasy

[whswhs]

I'm going to be running a dream fantasy campaign, and I'm thinking about some aspects of dreams and their game mechanical representation. I'm going to be using FUDGE rather than GURPS, so I'm writing about it here, but there will be some analogies that can be expressed in GURPS terms.

* Having dreams gives you raw material for divination (oneiromancy), especially if you're a lucid dreamer and can remember your dreams. But can a person without training make guesses at what dreams mean and have a chance at getting right answers? Or does it require mastery of a secret key to dream symbolism, gained through arcane studies—or maybe a special gift for inspired decipherment, analogous to the story in the Bible about the words MENE MENE TEKEL UPHARSIM?

In GURPS terms, should Oneiromancy have a default to a stat (most likely IQ), or does it have no default, or only one to some special skill?

* Some dreams come through the gate of horn, and reveal the truth; others through the gate of ivory, and are lies or illusions. (I'm reminded of Galadriel saying that mortals use the same word "magic" for what she does and for "the deceits of the Enemy.")

Now, someone who has had a dream might be caught up in it, and made especially persuasive. (I'm recalling King's "I have a dream" speech and thinking of it as if it were literal truth, not simply a trope.) But are there different effects from the two types of dreams? Does a dream through the Gate of Horn give you, say, true charisma, while a dream through the Gate of Ivory gives you a deceptive glamour? (And now I'm thinking of Titian's Sacred and Profane Love, where Profane is beautifully gowned, but Sacred is naked.) GURPS doesn't make such a distinction—Charisma benefits Fast-Talk and Sex Appeal as much as Diplomacy and Leadership (though it does distinguish Intimidation from specious Intimidation). But maybe I want one for this purpose.

I'd be interested to see what the rest of you have to say about these puzzles.

[Inky]

What to roll to interpret a dream would depend on how the dreams work, I suppose.

If it's straightforward, for instance, rather like remote viewing, it would be an IQ roll, with perhaps skill rolls against skills that would be relevant to the detective work of working out what you're seeing from an incomplete view, such as botany or area knowledge (using GURPS skills as examples) to identify a place you saw in a dream.

If they're sent by a god or other being, then it might be affected by how much you're in tune with the infinite/favoured by that god, understanding the symbols by some kind of psychic/divine inspiration. In game terms, either a measurement for "divine favour" or for telepathic ability. Or it might go by how much you understand some particular system of symbolism associated with them, like Kabala or astrology or whatever. The symbolism might be its own skill or might be the magical or theological knowledge skill.

If the dreams are like that because of your subconscious, then the skill needed to work out what they really mean would be psychology of some sort.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Inky

If the dreams are like that because of your subconscious, then the skill needed to work out what they really mean would be psychology of some sort.

That one is certainly not the case.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by whswhs

* Having dreams gives you raw material for divination (oneiromancy), especially if you're a lucid dreamer and can remember your dreams. But can a person without training make guesses at what dreams mean and have a chance at getting right answers? Or does it require mastery of a secret key to dream symbolism, gained through arcane studies—or maybe a special gift for inspired decipherment, analogous to the story in the Bible about the words MENE MENE TEKEL UPHARSIM?

In GURPS terms, should Oneiromancy have a default to a stat (most likely IQ), or does it have no default, or only one to some special skill?

I once heard a lecture by Scott B. Noegel and I remember that there is an ethnological literature on oneiromancy, there are manuals on the subject in Greek and Akkadian, and Freud had OPINIONS on the subject which turned out to be incorrect or at least based on a sample of one. If you can find the academic literature, you could flip through and pick whichever tradition of dream interpretation seems like it would make for a fun game. (Noegel's speciality is puns, puns which often work through the medium of a specific writing system eg. this word sounds like that word which can be represented with this sign which can also mean ...).

[Varyon]

In a setting where dreams are truly prophetic, everyone is going to have experience with having such dreams and then seeing them come to pass (or not, or deceptively seem to, for those from the Gate of Ivory). That should be sufficient to justify having a default, with more study - formal or otherwise - allowing for better reliability (in GURPS terms, investing points in the skill to have it above default).

Being "caught up" in a dream and trying to make it come to pass seems like a great situation for Higher Purpose in GURPS, which is basically an obsession with some activity/goal and a bonus to achieving it. A dream from the Gate of Horn may grant an unmodified form of Higher Purpose, while one from the Gate of Ivory may have something akin to a Power Modifier, essentially introducing weaknesses/countermeasures on account of it being less "real" (or perhaps both Gates have associated Power Modifiers, but they're set up differently). Depending on the Higher Purpose, a Delusion may be appropriate (not necessarily because of the untruth of what the character believes, but because of how people react to it - note belief in the supernatural can be a legitimate Delusion even in settings where the supernatural does exist but is hidden, simply because it makes everyone think you're crazy; you could have a Horn dream result in Delusion while an Ivory one doesn't).

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Varyon

In a setting where dreams are truly prophetic, everyone is going to have experience with having such dreams and then seeing them come to pass (or not, or deceptively seem to, for those from the Gate of Ivory). That should be sufficient to justify having a default, with more study - formal or otherwise - allowing for better reliability (in GURPS terms, investing points in the skill to have it above default).

Well, not necessarily everyone. True dreams may well be rare. Homer said that they were, I believe.

There's also the factor that dreams don't necessarily come out with a label that says "Gate of X." Penelope has a true dream, but dismisses it as a false one, when she offers that classification.

I'm thinking, too, that interpretation of dreams as signs of truths about the world is different from interpretation of dreams as psychological evidence. A Freudian style interpretation would be useless for the former purpose, even if Freud's theories were true.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Well, not necessarily everyone. True dreams may well be rare. Homer said that they were, I believe.

There's also the factor that dreams don't necessarily come out with a label that says "Gate of X." Penelope has a true dream, but dismisses it as a false one, when she offers that classification.

I'm thinking, too, that interpretation of dreams as signs of truths about the world is different from interpretation of dreams as psychological evidence. A Freudian style interpretation would be useless for the former purpose, even if Freud's theories were true.

It's ultimately up to the GM (you) if Oneiromancy has a default (or the equivalent of such in FUDGE). I was providing justification for why everyone would have a default; if you'd prefer they don't, things like rarity are certainly a good justification. High abstraction, such as is seen in many of the dreams Daniel interpreted in the Old Testament, can also be a good justification why only those with proper training (or even only those with supernatural abilities - Daniel was basically being guided by God to properly interpret the king's dreams) have any chance at all.

And, yeah, I assumed one generally couldn't tell if a dream came from the Gate of Horn or Gate of Ivory, although someone with the skill/ability to interpret dreams might be able to figure that out.

[jason taylor]

How about dreams being a portal to an alternate world? It has a different space and time (so that you always get back when you wake up). If you die in the alternate world you have a heart failure in this. You have adventures, quests, perhaps a fairy lover, what not.

One of the players is a Kwaitz Haderach kind of thing. He has access to the possibilities of the dreams.

Dreams are a racial memory archive. Only certain members of the tribe can access them and communicate them to the waking world.

Those are just some ideas.