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Old 08-17-2020, 11:16 PM   #111
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: In which I post about a TL9 solar system

8 Flora could probably support a population of 1% of Earth's sustainable population without that much difficulty. Asteroids are capable of supporting a lot more people than their size would suggest because the low gravity and lack of internal heat allows you to use the entire body, rather than the last 100 meters of solid surface. That would probably give it a maximum capacity of 37.5 million human beings, which is a heck of a market for icecubes. They would probably send out their own ships to nudge hydrated bodies into the right orbits rather than depend on private prospectors.
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Old 08-17-2020, 11:49 PM   #112
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Default Re: In which I post about a TL9 solar system

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
8 Flora could probably support a population of 1% of Earth's sustainable population without that much difficulty. Asteroids are capable of supporting a lot more people than their size would suggest because the low gravity and lack of internal heat allows you to use the entire body, rather than the last 100 meters of solid surface. That would probably give it a maximum capacity of 37.5 million human beings, which is a heck of a market for icecubes. They would probably send out their own ships to nudge hydrated bodies into the right orbits rather than depend on private prospectors.
Oh, definitely, in the mid-to-long term. Over time, a settlement like 8 Flora could come to host a number of satellite colonies of its own, even within the time-frame of this thread. ~1 million cubic kilometres gives the settlement a lot of room to work with. I also missed noting that it has silicates, which means it could produce some (not-to-outdated given the assumptions) computing equipment.

1 Ceres, with near ~3,500 billion cubic kilometres to work with, could grow to rival an entire planet by itself. However, the possible presence of cryovolcanoes would indicate some of that volume would be inaccessible. The general composition (carbon, water/ice, polysilicates, sulphur, etc) seems to indicate that agriculture, industrial chemical production, and computer industries could all thrive.
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Old 08-18-2020, 12:23 AM   #113
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: In which I post about a TL9 solar system

1 Ceres likely has subsurface oceans, so that would limit useful volume. I really doubt that it would be capable of doing much agriculture, it is too cold and lacks nitrogen, so it would need heated gardens and nitrogen shipments. At that point, it is better to look at building habitats around Titan, as it is the best source for nitrogen.
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Old 08-18-2020, 01:08 AM   #114
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Default Re: In which I post about a TL9 solar system

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
1 Ceres likely has subsurface oceans, so that would limit useful volume. I really doubt that it would be capable of doing much agriculture, it is too cold and lacks nitrogen, so it would need heated gardens and nitrogen shipments. At that point, it is better to look at building habitats around Titan, as it is the best source for nitrogen.
I have been assuming that all stations and settlements would use heated gardens; as well, the entire livable interior would require heating. I missed that 1 Ceres seems to generally lack nitrogen.

So, unless a nearby nitrogen-rich asteroid could be found, no farming; but industrial chemicals and computers. And if a nearby nitrogen-rich asteroid was found, it would probably be more practical to build the farms there. With a lack of nitrogen, conventional explosives are also generally off the list.
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Old 08-22-2020, 04:15 AM   #115
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Default Re: In which I post about a TL9 solar system

Where would this thread be without random late-night updates? So I thought to myself, "what if I throw out an end-point objective?" Anyway, O'neill cylinders like this one mark the start of the transition between TL10 and TL11 in the setting. Regular TL9-10 stuff will continue, but I thought it would be nice to look ahead from time to time.

Edit: Yutu Station, now 5.5 times cheaper, and with +50% population capacity.
Edit2: It was brought to my attention that there would be far too little immigration for the previous design to be viable. The station has thus been reduced in size; total volume is ten times less. This has also reduced the cost by an order of magnitude.

TL 10, Yutu O'neill (settlement), SM+22 unstreamlined hull, 10,000 yards.

Code:
Spacecraft Table
TL  Spacecraft              kST/HP  Hnd/SR  HT  Move    Lwt.    Load    SM  Occ     dDR     Range   Cost
10  Yutu O'neill            15/15   -6/6    15          10Gt    Lots    +24 600M    1,000   --      $110.73T
Code:
Front Hull      Total Cost ($9.33T)
[1]             Steel Armour (dDR 1,000, hardened) ($2,000G)
[2]             Arcology (Occupancy <=30 million+green space) ($5,000G)
[3-6]           Sky
[core+A]        Hangar Bay (Capacity 100Mt, launch rate 500kt) ($300G)
[core+B]        Cargo Hold (Capacity 150Mt)
[core+C]        Control Room (High Automation; 600 control stations, 30,000 workspaces, Complexity 14 computer network, comm/sensory Level 21) ($2,030G)
Code:
Central Hull    Total Cost ($10T)
[1]             Steel Armour (dDR 1,000, hardened) ($2,000G)
[2]             Arcology (Occupancy <=30 million+green space) ($5,000G)
[3-6]           Sky
[core]          Fuel Tanks (500 megatons of fuel; majority hydrogen) ($3,000G)
Code:
Rear Hull       Total Cost ($87T)
[1]             Solar Panel Array (provides 1 power point in sunlight) ($50,000G)
[2]             Steel Armour (dDR 1,000, hardened) ($2,000G)
[3]             F-cell Banks (provides 1 power point when in Earth's shadow; recharges off of the solar array) ($30,000G)
[4]             Arcology (Occupancy <=30 million+green space) ($5,000G)
[5-6]           Sky
Features: Spin Gravity (+$1T)
Notes: 1.2 million inorganic minifacs (+$600G), 1.2 million organic minifacs (+$600G), and 600,000 labs (+$1,200G)

The post-Solar War II era saw the building of large O'neill Cylinders. While "mini-O'neills" had been built before, none of them came near the original envisioned scale. With space lift rendered more and more trivial, and intrastellar travel almost routine, the first of these massive behemoths was constructed at the Earth's L1 point. The Earth-Mars Alliance had come out of Solar War II in a relatively good position, and saw the opportunity for both a long-term profit, and to remain relevant in the coming intra-stellar and even interstellar future.

Named Yutu after a mythological rabbit on the moon in Asian and other mythologies, the cylinder housed "ninety million and one" sapient beings; the "and one" being a reference to the Yutu O'neills' AI; one of the first fully-sapient artificial super-intelligences. The stations' primary means of coordination among its thirty thousand core staff members and six hundred officers, as well as ninety million residents, and any docked spacecraft, the station AI presents as a human female named Yutu, carrying a bow and quiver of arrows, and wearing an archaic sailors' uniform from Earths' World War II period.

A solar panel array and power cell bank provides enough power for the stations' organic and inorganic factories and science laboritories, earth-like lighting and radiation for the stations' residents, anti-meteroid point-defence (considered too trivial to list in the general design specifications), and agriculture; the hull is thick enough that even cosmic rays are greatly reduced. A hanger bay holds one hundred megatons of spacecraft capacity, and five hundred kilotons worth of ships can dock and undock every minute. A cargo hold provides one hundred and fifty megatons of cargo capacity; for long-term storage, brokerage, trade, and many other forms of market activity.

A full listing of every system on board, including both arcologies, is assumed to only theoretically exist; Yutu herself has admitted to not being able to keep track of everything.

Yutu Station ChatterLogs

"Hello? Is this thing on?" - Unknown Earther pilot.
"If it weren't, would you get an answer?" - Yutu station.
"...Huh?" - Unknown Earther pilot.
"Yes, it is." - Yutu Station
"So, uh, ok, my instructor told me to take the controls for a spin, but I dunno if he really meant that, because he kinda fainted." - Unknown Earther pilot.
"...I've called emergency services and they should have a tow out there shortly." - Yutu station
Audible sigh of relief "Thank you. I'll, uh, sit here and not touch anything."
"That makes you the most sensible emergency this week." - Yutu Station

"Yutu station, this is the Rockbucket Three Thousand, looking to sell a hundred thousand tons of uranium ore. Uh, where do I put it, over?" - Henry Goralski, captain of the Belter ship Rockbucket Three Thousand.
"Just a moment, I will designate a hazardous materials docking slip and cargo containers." - Yutu Station
"Thank you. I guess even a hundred thousand tons of this is kinda minor at the scale you operate on?" - Henry Goralski, captain of the Belter ship Rockbucket Three Thousand.
"Glad to be appreciated. Your docking route is ready."
"Thanks again, Yutu Station." - Henry Goralski, captain of the Belter ship Rockbucket Three Thousand.
"You are quite welcome." - Yutu Station.

"...So I says, I says, yeah, I think I'm drunk enough for this." - Unknown spacer.

"Can you connect me to a real person?" - Captain Jack Ready, of the spacecraft "I Got Mine waddya mean already taken?", Monday, 13:57
"Excuse me?" - Yutu Station, Monday, 13:58.
"Yeah, I don't want to keep saying letters and numbers to work through your chat menu." - Captain Jack Ready, of the spacecraft "I Got Mine waddya mean already taken?", Monday, 13:58.
"I'm sorry, all hanger bays are reading as full right now." - Yutu Station, Monday, 13:58.
"Ahh, rats. I'll just go to Luna." - Captain Jack Ready, of the spacecraft "I Got Mine waddya mean already taken?", Monday, 13:59.

Conversation recorded between Yutu Station and the Earth-Mars Spacer and Pilot Licensing Bureau office at Copernicus Crater, speaking with senior manager Amal Lindgen:
"Yutu Station - Calling the Earth-Mars Spacer and Pilot Licensing Bureau?" - Yutu Station, Monday, 14:05.
"This is senior manager Amal Lindgren. How can I help you, Yutu Station?" - Earth-Mars Spacer and Pilot Licensing Bureau, Amal Lindgren, Monday, 13:08.
"I'm afraid I have a minor bit of bad news coming your way..." - Yutu Station, Monday, 13:10.

Last edited by Say, it isn't that bad!; 08-23-2020 at 04:37 PM.
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Old 08-22-2020, 04:45 AM   #116
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Default Re: In which I post about a TL9 solar system

Some notes on the O'neill cylinder above:
  1. A solar panel array on two sections would provide just as much power as the fusion core, and be cheaper. However, I'm not sure how that would work in orbit of a planet.
  2. I don't know what sort of hull you'd need for a rotating O'neill cylinder of this sort, so I went for the most solid.
  3. I cannot find the info about rotating sections.
  4. Especially looking for advice on making it cheaper.
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In which I post about a TL9-10 solar system

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=169674

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Old 08-22-2020, 10:08 AM   #117
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: In which I post about a TL9 solar system

Spaceships does not really provide a good template for large structures. SM+24 is a bit too large for an O'Neill, by the way, as that would be a 100 billion ton object, and O'Neills tend to mass around 10 billion tons (two rotating cylinders plus support structures). SM+22 would probably be the optimal size, and they would have no high energy systems that would require any power points, so an O'Neill may look like the following:

O'Neill
Mass: 10 billion tons (SM+22)
Hull: Unstreamlined
Components:
Front-
[1]: Steel Armor ($2T)
[2]: Habitat ($10T)
[3-6]: Open Spaces ($20B)
Central-
[Core]: Fuel Tank ($3T)
[1]: Steel Armor ($2T)
[2]: Habitat ($10T)
[3-6]: Open Spaces ($20B)
Rear-
[Core]: Fuel Tank ($3T)
[1]: Steel Armor ($2T)
[2]: External Clamp ($1T)
[3-4]: Cargo Hold
[5-6]: Hanger Bays ($2T)
Features: Spin Gravity ($1T)
Notes: 1.2 million inorganic minifacs (+$600B), 1.2 million organic minifacs (+$600B), and 600,000 labs (+$1.2T)

Total Cost: $38.44T

With the above design, you have 120 million cabins, so you can probably comfortably house 60 million people (a cost of $641,000 per person). The minifacs are capable of creating $600 million of inorganic products and $600 million of organic products per hour, allowing a $10T per year economy from manufactoring. The cargo holds, fuel tanks, and hanger bays allow for refueling, repair, and transshipment services, probably adding another $10T per year in revenue (1 billion tons of cargo capacity, 1 billion tons of fuel capacity, and 600 million tons of hanger capacity).

Last edited by AlexanderHowl; 08-22-2020 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 08-22-2020, 02:23 PM   #118
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Default Re: In which I post about a TL9 solar system

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Spaceships does not really provide a good template for large structures. SM+24 is a bit too large for an O'Neill, by the way, as that would be a 100 billion ton object, and O'Neills tend to mass around 10 billion tons (two rotating cylinders plus support structures).
This is basically a "wonder project", to borrow a term. The Earth Alliance is saying "Look at our massive cylinder of industrial, commercial, and residential might. We built this!" Also, the write-ups tend to be from one perspective or another. The notes about this being "the first true full O'neill to original spec" are because the "writer" of that excerpt is intended to be something of an Earth-Mars Alliance fan. So, also, the write-up has a positive spin on the "wonder project", and glosses over the expense.

That being said, the O'neill cylinder design below is definitely something I'm going to borrow, use, and/or modify. And also use to trim the cost of the "full O'neill" down to something reasonable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
SM+22 would probably be the optimal size, and they would have no high energy systems that would require any power points, so an O'Neill may look like the following:

O'Neill
Mass: 10 billion tons (SM+22)
Hull: Unstreamlined
Components:
Front-
[1]: Steel Armor ($2T)
[2]: Habitat ($10T)
[3-6]: Open Spaces ($20B)
Central-
[Core]: Fuel Tank ($3T)
[1]: Steel Armor ($2T)
[2]: Habitat ($10T)
[3-6]: Open Spaces ($20B)
Rear-
[Core]: Fuel Tank ($3T)
[1]: Steel Armor ($2T)
[2]: External Clamp ($1T)
[3-4]: Cargo Hold
[5-6]: Hanger Bays ($2T)
Features: Spin Gravity ($1T)
Notes: 1.2 million inorganic minifacs (+$600B), 1.2 million organic minifacs (+$600B), and 600,000 labs (+$1.2T)

Total Cost: $38.44T

With the above design, you have 120 million cabins, so you can probably comfortably house 60 million people (a cost of $641,000 per person). The minifacs are capable of creating $600 million of inorganic products and $600 million of organic products per hour, allowing a $10T per year economy from manufactoring. The cargo holds, fuel tanks, and hanger bays allow for refueling, repair, and transshipment services, probably adding another $10T per year in revenue (1 billion tons of cargo capacity, 1 billion tons of fuel capacity, and 600 million tons of hanger capacity).
"Spin Gravity". That's the term I should have been searching for.
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In which I post about a TL9-10 solar system

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=169674

If you don't know why I said something, please ask. Assumptions are the death of courtesy.

Disappointed in the behaviour I have too-often encountered here.
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Old 08-22-2020, 03:08 PM   #119
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Default Re: In which I post about a TL9 solar system

I have made edits to Yutu Station.

How is the in-setting commentary? People seem to be ignoring it, so I'm wondering if it's worth adding.
__________________
In which I post about a TL9-10 solar system

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=169674

If you don't know why I said something, please ask. Assumptions are the death of courtesy.

Disappointed in the behaviour I have too-often encountered here.
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Old 08-22-2020, 03:17 PM   #120
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: In which I post about a TL9 solar system

You are still talking about a $1.36 quadrillion project. Let us be generous and assume a system population of 12 billion making $47,000 per capita. That translates to a GDP of $564 trillion/year. The nation would have to borrow 241% of GDP for just that one project, likely driving interest rates to 8% (at a minimum), meaning that the interest alone would be $109 trillion/year (19.29% of system GDP).
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