Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-24-2012, 10:00 AM   #1
chandley
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default [DF] Unicorns, Karkadann, Bulls... and charging

Okay, Im trying to sort this out, cause there are a few ways it seems its been done in various official sources, and I want to unify them.

Most Unicorn write ups buy a long striker, with reach C-2 (or sometimes just 2), Brawling, and Lance skill. When using Lance skill (presumably the Unicorn doesnt need a war saddle and stirrups to couch its horn), it does the usual collision damage, at presumable a +1 per die for the impaling striker... but does it TAKE collision damage? And if so, does it take it to its Striker (considered an arm for wounding purposes), or its Skull? Most Unicorn write ups include NO extra DR, implying the authors dont think they take slam damage if they use Lance skill. This might be balanced by not getting +1 damage from high Brawling.

The Karkadann has a normal impaling striker, with Reach C, 1. It just plain uses Brawling-16, getting the bonus to damage from Brawling at DX+2, then the +1 to damage (but not the -1 to hit) for making an attack at Move 7+, and then using the full collision damage +1 per die AND a bonus from high Brawling to get to that full 3d+6 (2.8d rounded to 3d base for ST 20 and Move 14, +3 for impaling striker, +1 from Brawling, +2 from I dont know where). It bought extra DR for its Skull, implying the author figured slam damage will go to its Skull, not its striker. However, it can parry with the striker... which means the striker will take damage if it parries a weapon (just like any arm, or in fact any weapon does) and so should have DR to help with that... but doesnt. Its mentioned a smart Karkadann could using Rapier with its striker, which is a trick Id love to apply to Unicorns actually... I figure its a perk (weapon adaptation or whatever it was called) to do that.

Deer get no extra DR, Oxen buy Skull DR.

So. Im looking for input: Striker, does it take damage when used in a Slam? Does it take damage when used in a slam and is blocked (which is usually what shatters lances)? Does it take damage when it is parried (the RAW seem to suggest it _does_, and as mentioned in previous threads, there is no rule that prevents this. A striker that can parry should buy DR with (Striker Only -20%) to help with this). OR is Skull DR meant to apply to Horns on the head, implying that Slam, Block and Parry damage should all go to the Skull (and then through to the brain... not a great deal for just DR 2 for free...). Either way, does Lance skill remove damage from a Slam (seems to, unless blocked)?

Thoughts?
chandley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 10:08 AM   #2
Humabout
 
Humabout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Default Re: [DF] Unicorns, Karkadann, Bulls... and charging

Strikers do not take damage when they are parried. That is certain.

I always just assumed that oxen have extra thick skulls, and that's why they have extra Skull DR. Deer are pretty average there, I suppose (I have no personal experience with either).

My guess is that the authors' vision of a Unicorn is that of having a longer horn than a Karkadann. I'd guess that a Unicorn using Lance skill is just to make them scarrier; though I'm not aware of such a writeup, if you can find a RAW Rhino, that would probably be the standard, realistic treatment of a creature that rams with its horn (my guess is Brawling, at best).
__________________
Buy My Stuff!

Free Stuff:
Dungeon Action!
Totem Spirits

My Blog: Above the Flatline.
Humabout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 10:52 AM   #3
Kromm
GURPS Line Editor
 
Kromm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
Default Re: [DF] Unicorns, Karkadann, Bulls... and charging

Breaking it down:
  • Slams can use Brawling to hit. This is spelled out under Slam (p. B371).

  • Slams do not suffer skill penalties at a full run. As noted in Move and Attack (p. B366), the drawbacks of that maneuver are for "a melee attack other than a slam." The reference to p. B371 points to Slam, where the rules state that "the -4 to hit and effective skill cap of 9 for a Move and Attack do not apply to slams." The Slams as All-Out Attacks rule (Martial Arts, p. 98) further allows full Move – not just half Move – with a slam as an All-Out Attack, again at no skill penalty.

  • Strikers do not function as arms.¹ They're effectively weapons that don't take damage. That's a gross simplification, but it's how they work. An upshot of this is that attacks with Strikers don't hurt the user. This includes slams – and as B372 says for shield rushes and p. 122 of Martial Arts says for slams with weapons, when you use a weapon to slam, it takes the damage for you. Since Strikers can't be damaged . . . it's always safe to slam with one.²

  • Thrusting attacks can use slam damage – (speed × HP)/100 – if greater than thrust damage, on a Move and Attack. This is found on p. 107 of Martial Arts, under Move and Attack. Since Strikers deliver thrusting attacks, this is 100% legitimate for them.

  • Strikers give +1 damage/die with any attack they make (p. B88). Brawling at DX+2 or better gives +1 damage/die with any Brawling attack (p. B182). These effects stack. If you slam with a Striker and use Brawling to hit, then the damage bonus on a slam can be up to +2/die.
Putting it all together, then, a charging beast can roll at full, unpenalized Brawling skill to hit with a slam delivered as either a Move and Attack or All-Out Attack. If it wants to hit with its Striker this way, it can – and then it is effectively slamming with a weapon, at little danger to itself. Damage will be (speed × HP)/100, at +1/die for the Striker and +1/die for using high Brawling skill.

The game-mechanical reasons for improved skull DR are twofold. First, the creature is presenting its head. Any Wait or other effect triggered by a slam is likely to result in an attack on its head. Second, when you parry a slam, you parry the entire creature. Here, it isn't just the Striker being parried, but the head to which it's attached.

The real-world reasons for improved skull DR are that this sort of Striker only makes sense with a strong anchor. Otherwise, it would snap off. So purely for reasons of verisimilitude, things that charge with horns ought to have a little skull DR. As it happens, most creatures start with a DR 2 skull, which might be enough. But those that do lots of damage would theoretically need thicker skulls.

The "missing link" here, if you deem there is one, is exact DR and HP for Strikers, and correlation between skull DR, Striker DR and HP, and potential damage output in a slam.



1. Unless you add the special Limb limitation from p. 47 of Martial Arts, which is why that's a limitation.

2. Well, unless you critically fail. Or have your entire self parried with a sharp weapon. And setting aside that you cannot dodge or retreat after a Move and Attack slam (p. B366 modified for p. 107 of Martial Arts), or defend at all after an All-Out Attack slam.
__________________
Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com>
GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games
My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News]
Kromm is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 10:57 AM   #4
Kromm
GURPS Line Editor
 
Kromm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
Default Re: [DF] Unicorns, Karkadann, Bulls... and charging

I should add that, yes, there are lots of Martial Arts references in my answer, and for that matter lots of pieces to the answer in general. DF simply cites an end result so that the reader need neither consult half a dozen rules nor own Martial Arts to use charging monsters in a fight. That's what DF does – it gives you all the stuff you need, in final, figured form. This means that at times, you won't be able to see all the levers and switches.
__________________
Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com>
GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games
My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News]
Kromm is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 11:42 AM   #5
Peter V. Dell'Orto
Fightin' Round the World
 
Peter V. Dell'Orto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New Jersey
Default Re: [DF] Unicorns, Karkadann, Bulls... and charging

Oh, the Karkadann has extra skull DR because I find people whack critters like that in the skull allot, and a well-built skull with a horn meant for killin' stuff should have extra DR in my opinion.

Not because I expected it would take damage in a slam to its skull*, but rather, I could justify some extra DR and I figured it was fair and made for a "better" creature.

* [Editing later: Which of course it can, if the slam is parried. I meant, during the course of an unparried slam.]
__________________
Peter V. Dell'Orto
aka Toadkiller_Dog or TKD
My Author Page
My S&C Blog
My Dungeon Fantasy Game Blog
"You fall onto five death checks." - Andy Dokachev

Last edited by Peter V. Dell'Orto; 02-24-2012 at 11:56 AM.
Peter V. Dell'Orto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 03:25 PM   #6
chandley
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: [DF] Unicorns, Karkadann, Bulls... and charging

Thanks guys, that does help. I dont mind the MA references, I have it... just didnt paw through it thoroughly enough I guess!

So, my version of a Unicorn might want some extra Skull DR in case its parried by a (very heavy) weapon, but its horn is otherwise fine.

Wonder what kind of limitation making the horn damageable is. I could buy it as a gadget with breakable and "must be forcefully removed"... cause lopping it off is pretty forceful.

And it sounds like Brawling is all I need at this point, and the GURPS Fantasy Unicorn with Lance is a little dated. For a perk, I could throw in Rapier for +3 on parry while retreating.

So I then end up with this for my Nymph Shaman:

Unicorn Ally 187 points
ST: 23 [65] HP: 23 [0] Speed: 7.00 [5] Dodge: 11
DX: 14 [48] Will: 11 [15] Move: 9/18 [10] Parry: 12 (Horn)
IQ: 8 [-40] Per: 12 [20] SM: +1 DR: 1*, 7 for skull.
HT: 13 [30] FP: 12 [0] BL: 106 lbs
Horn Skewer (16): 2d+5 imp, Reach C-1, can parry.
Bite (16): 2d-3 cr, Reach C-1.
Kick (14): 2d+2 cr, Reach C-1.
Horn Charge (16): 3d+6 imp at Move 11-14, 4d+8 imp at Move 15+
Advantages: Claws (Hooves) [3]; Combat Reflexes [15]; Enhanced Move 1 (Ground) [20]; Night Vision 3 [3]; Peripheral Vision [15]; DR 1 (Tough Skin -40%) [3]; DR 4 (Skull Only -70%) [6]; Impaling Striker (Horn* -45%) [5]; Spirit Empathy (Specialized, Nature Spirits -50%) [5]; Healing (Faith Healing +20%; Reliable +10 +50%; Horn* -45%) [38];
Immune to Disease (Horn* -45%) [5]; Very Fit [15].
Disadvantages: Cannot Speak (Can talk to anyone with Spirit Empathy, -60%) [-6]; Dead broke [-25]; Quadruped [-35]; Social Stigma (Valuable Property) [-10]; Weak Bite [-2]; Shyness (Severe) [-10]; Restricted Diet (Herbivore) [-10]; Sense of Duty (Nature) [-15]; Pacifism (Cannot Harm Innocents) [-10]; Intolerance (Evil**) [-5].
Skills: Brawling (E) DX+2 [4]-16; Mount (A) DX+1 [4]-15; Running (A) HT+1 [4]-14; Stealth (A) DX+1 [4]-15; Survival (Forest) (A) Per [2]-12; Escape (H) DX-1 [4]-14; Climbing (A) DX-1 [2]-14; Swimming (E) HT [1]-13; Hiking (A) HT [4]-14.
Class: Nature Spirit
*Gadget: Horn, Breakable DR 15, inconvenient to repair!, SM -6, Must be forcefully removed -45%
**This means refusing to heal people with things like Callous, Infernal supernatural features (or social stigma), etc. and generally acting pissy towards anyone that doesnt meet its standards of good behavior.
chandley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 04:25 PM   #7
mlangsdorf
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Default Re: [DF] Unicorns, Karkadann, Bulls... and charging

The Unicorn's Faith Healing already keeps it from being able to heal people with the Excommunicated or Infernal Social Stigma, as the gods most likely don't think them worthy of your healing.

Everything else looks reasonable.
mlangsdorf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 04:57 PM   #8
chandley
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: [DF] Unicorns, Karkadann, Bulls... and charging

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
The Unicorn's Faith Healing already keeps it from being able to heal people with the Excommunicated or Infernal Social Stigma, as the gods most likely don't think them worthy of your healing.

Everything else looks reasonable.
Yah, the Intolerant adds. It doesnt just not heal em, it says nasty stuff in Faerie language while it doesnt heal em. No riding it, wont even carry their unconscious bodies... you know, Intolerant :)

Though Excommunicated doesnt count. Its Nature oriented, not "Good Deity" oriented. Violating Sense of Duty (Nature), Cant Harm Innocents, that kind of thing would count for the Faith Healing.
chandley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 07:18 PM   #9
vitruvian
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: [DF] Unicorns, Karkadann, Bulls... and charging

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
  • Strikers do not function as arms.¹ They're effectively weapons that don't take damage. That's a gross simplification, but it's how they work. An upshot of this is that attacks with Strikers don't hurt the user. This includes slams – and as B372 says for shield rushes and p. 122 of Martial Arts says for slams with weapons, when you use a weapon to slam, it takes the damage for you. Since Strikers can't be damaged . . . it's always safe to slam with one.²
1. Unless you add the special Limb limitation from p. 47 of Martial Arts, which is why that's a limitation.

2. Well, unless you critically fail. Or have your entire self parried with a sharp weapon. And setting aside that you cannot dodge or retreat after a Move and Attack slam (p. B366 modified for p. 107 of Martial Arts), or defend at all after an All-Out Attack slam.
So, if you do a Slam with Striker (Limb), do you take the damage from the Slam? All the limitation says is that it's an existing limb rather than a new body part, but all the other stuff about Striker (parrying like it was a weapon, etc.) seems unchanged -it's still more like a weapon than not. After all, it's not like regular strikers aren't part of your body, they're just weapon-like parts...
vitruvian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2012, 08:53 PM   #10
Faolyn
 
Faolyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Silver Spring, MD
Default Re: [DF] Unicorns, Karkadann, Bulls... and charging

I'd say just give creatures like that extra skull DR because they'd be born chargers and need the protection. Or extra DR to the horn. OK, I saw what Kromm wrote about how Strikers don't take damage, but it seems to me that in any game where you have (a) an attacking creature with a bit horn on its face and (b) a party that includes a PC with an axe, someone's going to try to lop it off.

Or... decide that their skulls and brains are structured a bit like a woodpecker's skull. (Quote Wikipedia: "These include small brain size, the orientation of the brain within the skull (which maximises the area of contact between the brain and the skull) and the short duration of contact.") Then you don't have to change anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Humabout View Post
I always just assumed that oxen have extra thick skulls, and that's why they have extra Skull DR. Deer are pretty average there, I suppose (I have no personal experience with either).
Every time I've seen deer spar, they seem to...duel? with their antlers, as opposed to oxen and, presumably unicorns and other similar beasts, who charge. Hence lack of extra skull DR: deer seem to mostly just try to push each other away. I'm not a biologist, and my exposed to deer fights is limited to documentaries and the like, so I could be wrong. (And according to this, their antlers can be pretty tough, so maybe they should have extra DR there?)

...Since deer just push each other away, does that mean they should have the skill Sumo Wrestling?
Faolyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
bestiary, monster creation

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.