[DF] Big Solitary Boss Monsters - design theory

[Juca]

Gurps is not good with big bosses, simply because big = strong, and strong = strong attacks that will kill the characters when they hit (and the odds are all against the players).
If you really need a memorable "boss fight", you will have to take some "realism" from the rules. Lower the damage to something that the players can take once or twice without automatically dying (so they can see that the monster is business, it IS actually trying to kill then), up the hit-points of the beast to the infinity, maybe it has layer upon layer of fat and muscle between its vitals and those pesky swords, and, more important than all above, make it memorable, make it different, a fight against a diplodocus like beast in an open terrain is no match for a group of adventurers, it will go down quickly as it is flanked, and the characters will use standart tactics, but, if instead, they have to fight a bull-like golem construct, with very high HP and DR and some minor cracks in its armor in the front, in a maze-like cavern, they will have to think different: do they risk facing it up front, trying to hit its cracks? They willl have to aim, and that thing is charging them! Do they try to use the maze to catch it off guard, maybe targeting it "soft spot" in the back? Or maybe they try to run the thing down that huge abysm back in the dungeon...

Big powerfull enemies need epic, memorable fighting conditions, without this they will simply be big mooks, that waste more resources than the other, but are otherwise more from the same.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by Gigermann

OTOH, how would you treat the Balrog in LotR? Gandalf was clearly able to engage the thing in melee, and defeat it, with some magical aid. Really, it was just a super-capable "normal" bad guy, in a way, and doesn't really qualify as the type of boss I'm talking about.

The Balrog was an enemy beyond most Elves or Men's best possible efforts, remember that it single-handedly drove Durin' Folk from Khazad-dum. The Dwarves are extremely possessive, territorial, and stubborn, if they fled their ancient home it was because they found themselves up against an enemy they simply could not cope with. Think about it: the Balrog was faced off against the population of an entire large city-state, all by itself, and it won.

Gandalf could take on the Balrog because he, too, is in that league, when he's not concealing his full majesty and power. They're both angels, more or less, beings out of mortal scale. Gandalf conceals his full power 99% of the time, and has taken on certain flesh-and-blood limitations, but he's still in a different ultimate league than any of the other characters of LOTR.

In the First Age there were apparently incidents were Elves and Men fought Balrogs and at least survived it, but we have no details.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by Bruno

So here I am!

Let's start from first principles:

Why even have a fight against a single big monster?
You can make vague guesses about human ancestors adapting to swarming mega-fauna like mammoths or something, but it's a theme that does keep popping up in literature, myth, video games, and movies - I don't think it needs a lot of justification on that level beyond "people clearly like it". I leave the deep psychological analysis to others.

It can be a mark of madness. In Tolkien's legendarium, Fingolfin, the High King of the Noldor, broke under the despair of defeat and challenged Morgoth himself to single combat.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

Gandalf [is] still in a different ultimate league than any of the other characters of LOTR.

Sauron and Saruman are beings of the same basic category, though they express it rather differently.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Sauron and Saruman are beings of the same basic category, though they express it rather differently.

Saruman, yes, but Sauron is a much bigger fish. They're all Maiar, but Sauron is one of the big boys among that order, far bigger than Gandalf or Saruman. His peers in power would be entities like Eonwe or Melian.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Kromm talked about this subject in this post:

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...18&postcount=9

. . . essentially, how to make a boss fight more than "whittle down the HP."

I've written some on the idea, too, here:

http://dungeonfantastic.blogspot.com...ht-advice.html

In my experience, most boss fights end up being fairly anticlimactic. The PCs bust out whatever equivalent they have to nuclear weapons and dump them on the enemy as fast as possible. Maximal damaging attacks, saved up one-shot or low-charge magic items, every NPC has a grenade-like attack, the best fighter goes in maximally buffed, invisible, Great Hasted, Hasted to +3, after downing every potion the group has. Then the boss dies. The PCs know this is for all the coins in the pot, so they treat it that way.

The boss fights we had that were fun mostly were boss + allies. Boss + allies + false boss simulacra ("Dammit, which of those liches is THE lich?"). Boss that isn't vulnerable to a single eye strike + allies + tricks + traps + difficult terrain. Or boss + endless allies, who come in two a second and don't stop coming until the boss is down (and he's good at not dying). Or piles of bosses (ask my players about they time they fought Demogorgon. And the Demon God of Orcs. And the Slime Lord of Chaos. And dozens of other demons. All at the same time.) Often these fights happened when the players were thinking it couldn't possibly be "the big fight."

Which leads to another option to consider: don't make any boss fights. Or rather, don't designate anything a climactic fight or a boss fight. Just place your situations and monsters, and let the chips fall where they may. Maybe the real problem is expectation. If you build up the badguy in your head and their heads, you'll all be disappointed when he dies in one round (like these guys in an AD&D game, wiping out Strahd in Ravenloft in one round). What if you don't designate boss fights? "Boss" fights will be those fights that turn out be climactic just because of what happens when the dice fall and decisions are made, not ones you plan on being tough. By all means, make the guys in charge tough. Make the dragon clever and evil and powerful (and yes, stat the Balrog and Smaug, because you're not writing a book). Make the evil wizard smart and powerful and tricksey. But don't think of it as the evening's big fight. It might end in one salvo of attacks. Or it might drag on into a fight you discuss for the ages. But perhaps the "one big monster" thing just doesn't work outside of video games. It doesn't work so well in GURPS, but it doesn't work so well in other games, either, IME and based on what I've read.

Hope that helps.

[Randover]

I know I am bit out of topic but...

Know your PCs. Plan ahead. Learn from your experiences.

So far there were some excelent points and something fundamental.

First - boss should be interresting for everyone, so bossibly he needs way to attack whole party.
Second - boss attaks need to be chalanging but droping a person unconscious is a fail especialy at begining of a fight
Third - boss needs to be dinamic event, so don't build boss for A setting but build it specificaly for your party

I think the hardest part is the third one, we are talking about climatic battle from books and movies, that is World builder perspective. While players see it from there PCs perspective. The game is about them, not some stupid lore we set ahead. So dragons are big have scales, poison gas, breath etc. Everyone knows that and that is boring. What if the dragons shoots small darts? Or maybe he is super elastic attacking from impossible engles, streaching his arms for one hundred yards. Of course he was no ordinary dragon, he was there specialy set for the party chosing this way of fighting because he had some serious mental disadvatage.

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

Which leads to another option to consider: don't make any boss fights. Or rather, don't designate anything a climactic fight or a boss fight. Just place your situations and monsters, and let the chips fall where they may. Maybe the real problem is expectation. If you build up the badguy in your head and their heads, you'll all be disappointed when he dies in one round (like these guys in an AD&D game, wiping out Strahd in Ravenloft in one round). What if you don't designate boss fights? "Boss" fights will be those fights that turn out be climactic just because of what happens when the dice fall and decisions are made, not ones you plan on being tough. By all means, make the guys in charge tough. Make the dragon clever and evil and powerful (and yes, stat the Balrog and Smaug, because you're not writing a book). Make the evil wizard smart and powerful and tricksey. But don't think of it as the evening's big fight. It might end in one salvo of attacks. Or it might drag on into a fight you discuss for the ages. But perhaps the "one big monster" thing just doesn't work outside of video games. It doesn't work so well in GURPS, but it doesn't work so well in other games, either, IME and based on what I've read.

Hope that helps.

That is very true. You can not engineer an epic fight. Sometimes it happens and other times not. It is best just to design your adventure to be challenging all of the way through and that way some of the fights will be memorable during the adventure while others not so memorable. Basically don't put all the eggs in one basket, spread the cool monsters that must be defeated throughout the dungeon and then some of the fights will be epic and other routine.

[safisher]

Here's one way to think about design:
1. DR equal to 3/4 or 4/5 of warrior's max attack. (Do the numbers with all known buffs.)
2. Harden the DR to counter the AP weapons; harden again if necessary.
3. Injury Tolerance: No Brain or Vitals.
4. Extra Attacks equal to the likely number of PCs + Henchmen/3.
5. Enhanced Tracking for ranged attacks.
6. 360 degree vision for preventing surprise/helping fighting.
7. Damage dealing should include skill equal to PCs and the use of AP attacks, poison, afflictions that will penalize the PCs (pain, acid blood, etc.)
8. After the above, HP should be based on what the PCs can THEN do: if you want a short fight, give the monster 10-20 HP, longer, increase HP.
9. Use high HT and Defenses to stretch the fight, or reduce it. PCs will get backstabs, or the monster just fails its consciousness check, but generally, a HT17 boss will be much tougher than a glass-jawed HT10 boss.

In other words, build the Boss to fight the party to a standstill. He should be approximately as tough as all the party's warriors per turn: they can deal out 7d+2 total per turn, so does Boss. The best can pierce DR14, so can he.

Other Considerations:
1. Spells: Bladeturning and Reverse Missile Spells can protect equal to some of the above powers. This can force the archer to fight hand to hand, nerf the mage fireballs, and cripple the multi-chop barbarian from making his six attacks per round. Use magical spells to hide the boss, confound detection of its own magic spells, etc.
2. Effects: Stun, Terror, and Affliction (-3 to DX, due to Fear roll versus Will-5 to recover) can give the Boss rounds of bonuses.

Tactics:
Ambush and sniping on the PCs are possible, but maybe not exactly dramatic fun. Ditto a fly-by from a dragon which snatches up the party one by one and drops them from on high. Instead:
1. Have the boss use several special attacks -- open with flaming breath, then use a tail smash, charge with horns, throw spells, catch spells, etc. This makes it a mix-up fight, with more variety and thus not just a HP drain.
2. Kill the henchmen, horses, and set their stuff on fire. At minimum, the boss fight will be memorable!
3. Boss uses tactics to counter PCs tactics, but not make them worthless. It trades shots with the archer, spells with the mage, and lands in front of the knight so he has some memorable melee combat.

It's entirely possible to work these battles out - though, on occassion they don't work out this way. The PCs pull something and you as the GM just roll with it. Overall, its no fun when the boss gets a TPK. But, if he COULD, and the PCs win, that's an awesome session!

[Dammann]

I had a boss battle occur by accident, sort of. I was running a space opera campaign, and while traveling down a river by inflatable raft, an aquatic predator attack turned into a big deal. I expected the PCs to take the animal out (these were modestly-to-poorly equipped ultra-tech adventurers). Instead, when the animal started attacking the rafts (thinking the rafts to be threatening the animal's territory), the players sort of panicked for a bit, then found reasons for not all characters to commit to direct combat.

The key elements that gave the beast a chance (and a dramatic charge to the incident) were setting and expectations.

The players expected a high tech attack by robots, coming from above. They did not anticipate an attack on their transportation from beneath the water. Being ambushed by a dumb beast left them vulnerable, and while their gear included some powerful weapons, being taken off guard led to some wonderful flailing.

The setting was a problem, too. They were hampered by the challenge of fighting in an unfamiliar environment. Swiftly flowing, murky water let the animal strike at intervals, which made things suspenseful. As each raft was rammed from beneath and then bitten, players were worried that the next time those jaws emerged from the water, their characters might be the target. Some characters were poor swimmers. A lot of crucial equipment was sinking or floating away, leading some characters to try to save the gizmos they needed.

There was a real sense of fear, despite a creature with unimpressive stats. When the animal did start attacking players, one player chose to employ risky tactics in order to insure a kill (the character had Bloodlust), and nearly died as a result.

The aftermath was even great; frantic first aid being applied to the now unconscious beast-slayer, rescuing a poor swimmer who'd been swept under the water one too many times, and a total change in the overall strategy of the group with regard to the final goal, in light of their lost supplies. The players got so grimly determined, and the intended Big Bad was a pushover in comparison.

The lessons I took away from this accidental success, that I feel may apply to having a single big antagonist to fight:
1. limit the characters' senses and movement; this mitigates the huge advantage they enjoy with regard to number of attacks
2. give the characters other tasks to do while they are fighting, which are as important as the fight; if they can defeat the monster easily at the cost of starving or or losing the important McGuffin, they will divide their activities
3. don't just ambush them, figure out or encourage assumptions, then subvert them; planning is fun, but thinking on one's feet is fun, too, and dealing with what one isn't specifically prepared for is pretty much what an adventure really is, in my experience
4. demonstrate the deadly attack the antagonist has without killing any characters, to create anxiety before the attack is pointed right at them; ripping the rafts to shreds worked for me, but equally effective examples might be dragons blasting the barn with fire, the gorgon turning the poor pack mule to stone, surrounding the lair with well armored corpses from past adventurers, or having the party's limited liability corporation get sued by the Church of Scientology