How tough must a dragon be at TL8?

[Phoenix_Dragon]

As much as I -love- dragons, they fare poorly against modern military hardware.

Originally Posted by vitruvian

DR 100 is sufficient for small arms, up to and including the guns (though not necessarily missiles) that helicopter gunships are likely to be sporting.

Quick search says the 30mm gun for the apache usually fires a HEDP round that can penetrate 2 inches of RHA, would would be around DR140. Though since this is due to the huge armor divisor shape-charged weapons get, I imagine it'd be low damage (4d(10) would be about that), meaning you'd have to hit the thing a lot. All the other weapon systems... Not so much. You might not do much with the rockets if you use HE instead of HEDP, but a hellfire would be a bad day (Major wound or up).

Considering that I would expect such huge DR to be a result of thick plates or such, I'd expect a few weak-points you could target with slightly lighter weapons (Anti-material rifles, for example). The .50 APHEX round listed in High-Tech would already go through DR100 to do (a little) damage. And an eye shot would do serious damage. With +10 SM, it's easy to make any time you catch one relatively stationary or not expecting to be attacked, especially by tiny little things it didn't know about a kilometer away. It'd only do an average of about a third of its HP, but it's a cheap expenditure to half-blind the dragon, and effectively deny an area for rest.

ST 500 is sufficient to quickly crunch anything up to APCs, and even to tear away the side armor of tanks to get at the meaty goodness inside.

ST 500 is BL 50,000. Enough to pick up the tank and throw it :>

Takes both hands and four seconds, but it can do it. And throw them about 75 yards, in fact, from some quick mathing. Quite enough to put it out of action. The damage actually isn't that high (51d thrust?), and would have some difficulty with the side armor of tanks (Judging by High-Tech) and only really have a chance against the top, but would destroy any other vehicle. Or it could just tear the turret off (Some are only even held in by gravity!). But the trick is, getting to them...

For actual tanks, flying above the point where the main gun can be elevated to track the dragon is a viable tactic.

Unfortunately, this only works if the tanks are alone. With tank guns being able to elevate around 30 degrees (Depending on the tank), and able to hit moving targets at multiple kilometers, a single platoon of tanks should be able to protect themselves pretty well from such a dragon attacking one of their members (If they aren't all freaking out at some 300-foot-long creature flying around in front of them). Just 100 yards apart, and they'd be able to hit any dragon that attempted to grab one of their companions.

Flying faster won't help. A modern tank round flies about two kilometers in a second. Even at move 30, that's only 30 yards of movement before that tank two kilometers away hits you. You don't even need the fancy ballistics computers then. Aim at the neck or head, and you hit the body. Aim for the chest, you hit the hips. Either way, it's going to be nasty on the dragon. Even if we just assume from GURPS stats, an APFSDS round will take the dragon below 0 hitpoints on any torso hit. Vitals would probably be unsurvivable. And from a couple kilometers away, the dragon has a good chance of not even seeing it coming.

Tanks are used to hitting SM+3-4 targets moving around move 20-25 at 3km+. A SM+10 target is going to be a day at the range.

Unless they're unusual, IR and radar should track them just fine. Flesh isn't great for radar returns, but when there's around ten thousand tons of it... You already have to filter out much smaller returns for most radar systems (Note, those same filters might cause interesting issues there for a while, too). And IR has no trouble tracking relatively cool targets just fine. I suppose breathing fire at a heat-seeker might help some, if you can obscure its view and drop out of the way quick enough, but the dragon would have to know what a missile is, what IR guidance is and how to defeat it, and see it coming to begin with (At a few hundred yards per second, from who knows what angle).

So yeah, magic (At least, magic beyond what's necessary to to make a 100-yard-long dragon fly) would be pretty necessary to let them compete against a modern military force. Or genre conventions (Or lack of realism, depending on whether it's intentional or not). DR 100 is probably already pushing beyond realism anyway, unless these dragons are covered in massive armor plates, or some unnatural material for a living creature.

Oh yeah, don't know what they do to whales (Beyond the obvious, "chunky salsa" answer), but considering what they do to metal-hulled warships, a modern torpedo would be quite lethal, and goes faster than the dragon's listed swim speed (And from some estimates, its flying speed). A quarter ton of explosives detonating in close proximity, underwater, is not going to be pleasant. Though it might have issues tracking the dragon, and since many modern fuses seem to be classified, it's unknown if they'd detonate properly (Command-detonate might work). Though I imagine, if dragons have been a long-time thing, they'd be made to work.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

Flying faster won't help.

Yeah it will. Tank guns aren't designed for shooting at aircraft, and due to time of flight concerns it's not very easy to hit aircraft with unguided projectiles under the best of conditions.

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

Even at move 30, that's only 30 yards of movement before that tank two kilometers away hits you.

Move 30 is really slow for a large flying object, though I can see why he might not want his dragons to have move 300, which is a more likely figure for something the indicated size.

[benz72]

Originally Posted by Anthony

It doesn't have to be levitation magic, but doing it with aerodynamic flight is going to be pretty interesting -- a 100 yard long dragon, if it's a normal density for an animal, is going to weigh several thousand tons, and to fly will need to be stronger weight for weight than a human. A 5,000 ton dragon, which is reasonable estimate, that flies by mechanical means, would likely need on the order of 4,000 ST to fly, and would fly at a minimum of a few hundred miles per hour, and probably run at upwards of 100 mph.

I'm not buying this. based off of a large cargo plane...

Specifications (C-5B)
A detail of the C-5's nose assembly raised for loading and unloading.Data from USAF fact sheet,[86] Lockheed-Martin C-5,[87] International Directory of Military Aircraft,[88] and Quest for Performance.[89]

General characteristics

Crew: 8 typical (pilot, first pilot, copilot, two flight engineers, three loadmasters)
4 minimum (pilot, copilot, two flight engineers)
Payload: 270,000 lb (122,470 kg)
Length: 247 ft 1 in (75.31 m)
Wingspan: 222 ft 9 in (67.89 m)
Height: 65 ft 1 in (19.84 m)
Wing area: 6,200 ft2 (576 m2)
Empty weight: 380,000 lb (172,370 kg)
Loaded weight: 769,000 lb (348,800 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 840,000 lb (381,000 kg)
Powerplant: 4× General Electric TF39-GE-1C high-bypass turbofan, 43,000 lbf (190 kN) each
Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 0.79 (503 kn, 579 mph, 932 km/h)
Cruise speed: Mach 0.77 (919 km/h)
Range: 2,400 nmi (2,760 mi, 4,440 km) with a 263,200 lb payload
Service ceiling: 35,700 ft (10,600 m) at 615,000 lb (279,000 kg) gross weight
Rate of climb: 1,800 ft/min (9.14 m/s)
Wing loading: 120 lb/ft2 (610 kg/m2)
Thrust/weight: 0.22
Takeoff roll: 8,400 ft (2,600 m)
Landing roll: 3,600 ft (1,100 m)
Fuel capacity: 51,150 US gal (193,600 L)


It is ~75% the length and only 420 tons (less than 1/10th the mass) of your proposed critter. Remember that there is nothing requiring the beast to be very large in diameter either... it could be 6' tall and 300' long or 60' tall and 300' long.

[jacobmuller]

How about every dragon has a permanent Force Dome*, except it would be a Force Globe. The dragon can choose whether or not to be seen and only magic can penetrate. This would make combat either magical or melee.

*all that virgin sacrificing had to be for some reason... And maybe it needs maintenance:)

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Yeah it will. Tank guns aren't designed for shooting at aircraft, and due to time of flight concerns it's not very easy to hit aircraft with unguided projectiles under the best of conditions.

Move 30 is really slow for a large flying object, though I can see why he might not want his dragons to have move 300, which is a more likely figure for something the indicated size.

Move 30 is -7 to hit.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

ST 500 is BL 50,000. Enough to pick up the tank and throw it :>

Takes both hands and four seconds, but it can do it. And throw them about 75 yards, in fact, from some quick mathing. Quite enough to put it out of action. The damage actually isn't that high (51d thrust?), and would have some difficulty with the side armor of tanks (Judging by High-Tech) and only really have a chance against the top, but would destroy any other vehicle. Or it could just tear the turret off (Some are only even held in by gravity!). But the trick is, getting to them...

50d thrust is 175 average damage, and last I looked, High-Tech had side armor at about DR 100... oh, wait, that was from Supers, High-Tech has side armor at 165. Still, top armor has only 90, and since the dragon's best bet is to drop down from above anyway...

I also have to wonder about the effective DR of tanks versus being thrown. The damage under GURPS rules wouldn't even scratch the front or turret armor, but does anybody actually believe that a tank that was thrown 75 yards wouldn't crunch pretty well on impact? Maybe such whole body impacts should always be figured to target the weakest DR in the structure, on the weakest link principle.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Gef

I started with the notion that dragon DR is about 20% of ST, so if a size 10 critter has ST 500, that'd yield DR 100. This is for a dragon the size of a football field (the field, not the stadium). My notion is for a TL8 fantasy world, where dragons have been barred from the world for a couple of millennia, but in the magical domains where they've been forced to reside, they continued to grow. Now they're back, and they are wise and magical, but I want them to be tough, too, so I'm wondering how threatening ST 500 and DR 100 really is. Of course, that's pretty respectable for a superhero, and they can cause plenty of damage to cars and civilians, rampaging through city streets, and DR 100 will shrug off small arms fire with ease, but how will they fare against helicopter gunships? Size 10 is an easy target. Thanks.

GEF

Not especially well...unless they know Deflect Missiles.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

50d thrust is 175 average damage, and last I looked, High-Tech had side armor at about DR 100... oh, wait, that was from Supers, High-Tech has side armor at 165. Still, top armor has only 90, and since the dragon's best bet is to drop down from above anyway...

I also have to wonder about the effective DR of tanks versus being thrown. The damage under GURPS rules wouldn't even scratch the front or turret armor, but does anybody actually believe that a tank that was thrown 75 yards wouldn't crunch pretty well on impact? Maybe such whole body impacts should always be figured to target the weakest DR in the structure, on the weakest link principle.

Somebody check if falling damage treats all DR as Flexible (I don't remember for sure).

[zoncxs]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

50d thrust is 175 average damage, and last I looked, High-Tech had side armor at about DR 100... oh, wait, that was from Supers, High-Tech has side armor at 165. Still, top armor has only 90, and since the dragon's best bet is to drop down from above anyway...

I also have to wonder about the effective DR of tanks versus being thrown. The damage under GURPS rules wouldn't even scratch the front or turret armor, but does anybody actually believe that a tank that was thrown 75 yards wouldn't crunch pretty well on impact? Maybe such whole body impacts should always be figured to target the weakest DR in the structure, on the weakest link principle.

the falling damage from being thrown 75 yards would hurt. something that weighs several tons can crush itself on impact. using the stuff on B558:

say 60tons?: 120000lbs= about 400HP

400HP*75/100= 300d6 of crushing damage done on impact. ouch.

so if it hits the weak spot or not, you are right, it should be like paper under its own weight.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Move 30 is -7 to hit.

And a 300 ft long dragon is SM 10. Net +3 to hit, because the dragon isn't moving fast enough relative to its size to make it challenging to target.

Unfortunately the target move is 40 mph, which is Move 20 and even slower. I'd suggest going for 80-100 mph (or more!) - at least in short bursts.

There's possibly an amusing opening for Parry Missile Weapons skill and taking it a little more literally. Enhanced Time Sense might be a must - it fits roughly in with Dragons having amazing senses, which is a trope. On a similar idea, either a magic-based Scanning Sense, or relatively-mundane "high powered" sonar might be an idea - although sonar is vulnerable to the speed-of-sound issue and won't be useful for finding supersonic projectiles.

Folks have mentioned using flame breath as a hot flak, but I wouldn't discount being able to Power Parry homing missiles with flame breath - possibly blinding the sensors or disabling the missile entirely, or at least giving the dragon a chance to detonate them at range so the dragon can take advantage of the geometric reduction in damage. You'll probably still want ETS to pull it off.