Questions while reading rules more accurately...

[Farmer]

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

How does one dodge a vertical attack then? mitosis?
Anyway, not getting baited any further.

Baited? PKB.

Dodging a vertical attack? Sway to the side, or back, twist a bit, step a little one way or another. It's not hard to imagine.

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

Edit:
One more thing though:
If a regular dodge isn't stepping at all, especially not backwards.
Then I suppose regular fighting in GURPS is not cinematic at all, but clockwork figures rockem sockem roboting one another, doing at most a little body sway.

Losing completely to D&D in choreography where it's assumed that the fighters are doing all sorts of cool stuff in their squares.

Right. So you're just trolling to tell us all that another system is better and if you have actually played GURPS, it hasn't been often.

Feedback is great. Trolling is isn't.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

Edit:
One more thing though:
If a regular dodge isn't stepping at all, especially not backwards.
Then I suppose regular fighting in GURPS is not cinematic at all, but clockwork figures rockem sockem roboting one another, doing at most a little body sway.

Losing completely to D&D in choreography where it's assumed that the fighters are doing all sorts of cool stuff in their squares.

Watch again Mike Tyson fights. Watch some other fights. Watch the Lord of the Ring fights. Watch 300 fights. Watch any real or cinematic fight. Attentively.

You will notice a lot of dodges with stepping backward, without stepping backward (ducking for instance), slipping to the side, the front (Mike Tyson often did that) as well as different ways to parry or use your shield while stepping back or without stepping back ...

Brief you will discover that there are a lot of possibilities to defend yourself, not just one.

And GURPS offers a very good approach of that diversity with all its optional combat rules.

But nobody is enforced to used them. If you don’t like them, just drop them. Keep things as simple as possible if you prefer. It will still be “the same game. You may all use it differently, but your campaigns will all be compatible.”

This is one of the greatest features of GURPS.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

That's pretty much it then. Unresolvable problem due to ambiguity (since without a hex mat, the step doesn't matter)

If taking a single step to dodge an incoming attack is a normal dodge (unless you let the weapon phase through you)

or
If taking a single step to dodge an incoming attack is a retreating and warrants a hex move (which without a mat doesn't even need to be a thing).

Then yes we will be arguing forever, well, not really forever since I'm admitting defeat :P

A critical point you may be missing is that GURPS is a game. Realistically, a relatively small movement backward can make a big difference, but in GURPS we need a way to determine if you have room to actually make that move. Also, if someone keeps backing up during a fight, they're going to move across the battlefield, so we need to track that movement. The lowest resolution GURPS generally deals with, movement-wise, is the yard/hex. So, given the above (that moving backward - Retreating - gives a defense bonus, but calls for some amount of empty space behind the character, and someone constantly doing so without moving back forward is going to move across the battlefield over time, and that the lowest resolution of movement is the yard/hex), the best option (or least bad option, if you prefer) is to just have Retreats involve moving back 1 yard/hex. In a case where a character Retreats 1 yard and stays there (say their foe pursued them, or they had enough Reach with their weapon to strike from that distance), maybe the Retreat was only a foot, and then the character backed up a bit more to maintain some distance. In a case where a character Retreats 1 yard, then on their own turn immediately Steps back to where they started from and attacks, then yet again maybe the Retreat was only a foot, and then they moved back for their counter attack.

The Random Thought Table (not an actual table, just a humorously-named series of articles) from Pyramid #3/61 is relevant here. There, it suggested not to take the second-by-second unfolding action at the table completely literally, but rather look at the ultimate results to describe what happened in the battle. A random roll that results in a shoulder hit could mean the attacker swung randomly, the attack went toward the shoulder, and the target failed to get his sword in the way to Parry it. Or, more interestingly, it could mean the attacker spotted an opening to hit the target in the head, and the target managed to knock the blow off track (or get partially out of the way, or pivot to put their shoulder in the way, etc), and it ended up hitting the shoulder instead.

[Lovewyrm]

Originally Posted by Farmer

Baited? PKB.

Dodging a vertical attack? Sway to the side, or back, twist a bit, step a little one way or another. It's not hard to imagine.



Right. So you're just trolling to tell us all that another system is better and if you have actually played GURPS, it hasn't been often.

Feedback is great. Trolling is isn't.

Stepping a little.
Including backwards?

And I'm not trolling, you're munchkinning the hell out of this.
"Nyehhh, by backstepping I'm doing a retreating dodge not a normal dodge, which would just be a small sway"

But good job you got another reply out of me.

How freaking cinematic, yeah. I'm totally trolling.

D&D combat without moving out of the squares:
Flurry of blows, dodges left and right ducks, perhaps even jumping over a low attack.,

GURPS combat without "moving around" because that would be a retreating dodge and as per your words you don't even get a SINGLE step backwards for a dodge, only for a retreating dodge:

Two human figures standing stock still, only waving and swaying a little JUST so you can have your magic dodge cake and eat it too.

But fine.
How do you dodge a wide leg sweep without doing a retreat dodge (aka a normal dodge, but you want your extra bonus for a regular dodge)

Would you jump?
In that case: Nope, you don't get to jump because that would put you in a higher vertical hex.
And remember, you don't get to do a retreating dodge for this attack.

Just a normal one.

Do you now use your non trolling mitosis power to limbo underneath the leg?
Cause if you jump then you displace yourself about as high upwards as you would displace yourself backwards or sideways with a step, and steps are not allowed to dodge.

How do you dodge? This leg sweep is vorpal by the way, no jumping, no stepping, no displacement.
Only swaying.

One hit and you're at -10x HP.

I can guesst he answer tho:
"I'm doing a quickstep over it, no matter how fast the leg is I won't jump but I will perfectly sync my steps so one foot contacts the ground just like in kindergarten with the round spinny ball thing"

Gawd.

[JulianLW]

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

But fine.
How do you dodge a wide leg sweep without doing a retreat dodge (aka a normal dodge, but you want your extra bonus for a regular dodge)

Would you jump?
In that case: Nope, you don't get to jump because that would put you in a higher vertical hex.
And remember, you don't get to do a retreating dodge for this attack.

Just a normal one.

...

Gawd.

Dude. You jump. You don't have to jump 3 feet to dodge a leg sweep.

I don't think you're really making arguments here, but then, you know that.

Vorpal leg sweep. SMH.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

And I'm not trolling, you're munchkinning the hell out of this.

... What mechanical advantage are you seeing, beyond the normal Retreat bonus?

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

Two human figures standing stock still, only waving and swaying a little JUST so you can have your magic dodge cake and eat it too.

Yeah, characters should be assumed to be moving a bit within their hexes, it's just not enough to make a significant difference. I would disagree with any statement that defenses that don't make use of Retreat (or the related Slip and Sideslip) involve no leg movement whatsoever... they just don't involve a lot of movement, and their movement is well below system resolution.

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

How do you dodge a wide leg sweep without doing a retreat dodge (aka a normal dodge, but you want your extra bonus for a regular dodge)

Would you jump?
In that case: Nope, you don't get to jump because that would put you in a higher vertical hex.

Seeing as hexes are canonically 4 yards high, you'd need some pretty impressive ups to manage that. Of course, a quick "hop" over a sweep may involve little or even no overall upward movement.

[Lovewyrm]

Originally Posted by JulianLW

Dude. You jump. You don't have to jump 3 feet to dodge a leg sweep.

I don't think you're really making arguments here, but then, you know that.

Vorpal leg sweep. SMH.

Farmer stated that you don't get a simple backstep to use as a dodge.
But a full on jump? Sure it's not three feet, but aimed at the shins it's still a pretyt good hop.

And that's okay? That is okay.
Anything to keep the retreat dodge bonus on a simple step. Anything to keep it as the precious bonus retreat dodge.


As for arguments. It's impossible for me to make arguments it seems, because you win every time.

"Stationary GURPS combat is not as dynamic as stationary D&D combat!"
Troll! Stationary GURPS combat is plenty dynamic you can jump, you can step a little, you can do all sorts of things.

"Stepping a little is not a retreating dodge, it's just spacing to maintain effective fighting range for a chosen weapon or style, I'm not giving you the bonus for it."
Troll! Stepping is retreating and I get the retreating bonus. Here's a video of swordfighters steping all over the place! They're retreating!

"Then what's not a retreating dodge, one that you would use in stationary combat?"
You'd just sway a little, maybe a little step.

"So stationary GURPS combat is not as dynamic as D&D combat?"
Troll! You can totally move around, you can steps and even jump while staying in your hex, it's big for a reason.

"So if you step around in your big for a reason hex, it's not a retreat dodge"
Troll! it is a retreat dodge and I want my bonus! You're mincing words!

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Varyon]

Lovewyrm, nobody aside from you has ever suggested that you can get a Retreat bonus while staying within your own hex (outside of my suggestion of a houserule that divides up the hex and allows for a bonus for changing where in the hex you are; note I wasn't suggesting that would be a good idea, just giving an idea of what such a houserule might look like for those who want more precision out of the system). We've just said that what gets accounted for as moving 1 hex doesn't have to mean actually moving back a full yard. I'm not sure what you're even arguing for at this point.

[Lovewyrm]

Originally Posted by Varyon

.
Seeing as hexes are canonically 4 yards high, you'd need some pretty impressive ups to manage that. Of course, a quick "hop" over a sweep may involve little or even no overall upward movement.

Yes, but the smallest resolution of movement is a full hex.
And if a retreat dodge that is in reality 'just a small step' or even an INCH as Kromm stated...you move into a new vertical hex too.
Fair's fair right?

No. Not when it comes to this subject. Believability be damned. Rollplaying all the way.

Which was my main issue since the beginning by the way. Believable fighting.
Yet for y'all even a small step is a specialized form of defense for a bigger bonus and not just 'flavor' for a normal fight. Like one where you maintain spacing.

Getting real tired of this now though.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

Yes, but the smallest resolution of movement is a full hex.

You're not Retreating, so the movement doesn't need to be resolved - it's just a mechanically-inconsequential bit of movement inside of your hex.

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

Which was my main issue since the beginning by the way. Believable fighting.

If you insist on interpreting things in a fashion that makes the fight unbelievable, you aren't going to get a believable fight.