Hip Shooting of Long Arms from the Shoulder?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Yeah, there's a guy in there who appears to be in the middle of walking out when the gunman opens the door. But when he places his offhand back on the barrel and steps forward, he could have just as readily transitioned back into a normal grip without stepping forward, leaving the tip of the barrel more-or-less the same place as it is after the step forward, giving himself a bit more room between himself and the other guy, and actually shouldering the rifle. In GURPS terms, what we see is him taking a Ready to change back to a two-handed stance while maintaining the +1 Bulk and the likely -1 each to Guns and Malf, when the same Ready would have sufficed to go back to a proper stance. And if using a ruling that allows it to be done more quickly than a full Ready in this situation, I really don't see it taking any more time to reshoulder the rifle and get the offhand back on it than it takes to just get the offhand back on it alone. But I may be overanalyzing.

He's holding the guy in the room at gunpoint at that point. I don't know why, exactly, but hopefully he's doing it because he intends to instead of because he just can't resist reflexively pointing guns at people.

Even if he wanted to move backwards, he probably can't reshoulder the gun without making it briefly unready in the transition. Moving the hand from the door to the gun wasn't accompanied by a substantive re-arrangement of the gun.

(I, for one, think that IRL it's not impossible to do the equivalent of Wait while simultaneously doing other minor actions.)

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Hollywood typically isn't known for good gun handling, after all (also, the fact he keeps that weird stance after opening the door seems off - he looks like he has enough time and space to transition back to the more proper stance he was using at the beginning of the clip). All that said, I'm by no means an expert.

Yeah, this is pure Hollywoodism. In a "solo room clearing" situation like that, if he were trained he'd have positioned to the left of the door, keep the rifle at his shoulder, leaned and open the door with his left hand, returned to up rigth stance, regripped his rifle with his left while sidestepping right to begin "slicing the pie".

Just opening and stepping in, regardless of the 'efficacy' of the weird one-handed rifle grip, is muay nono.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

Yeah, this is pure Hollywoodism. In a "solo room clearing" situation like that, if he were trained he'd have positioned to the left of the door, keep the rifle at his shoulder, leaned and open the door with his left hand, returned to up rigth stance, regripped his rifle with his left while sidestepping right to begin "slicing the pie".

Just opening and stepping in, regardless of the 'efficacy' of the weird one-handed rifle grip, is muay nono.

Not that this approach looks good, but wouldn't that approach be almost certain to fail in any situation that called for it? By opening the door you compromise your surprise, and armed people in the room hold every advantage as they wait for you to expose yourself.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Not that this approach looks good, but wouldn't that approach be almost certain to fail in any situation that called for it? By opening the door you compromise your surprise, and armed people in the room hold every advantage as they wait for you to expose yourself.

Don't clear rooms without backup, ideally overwhelming force, and plenty of ordnance, at least flashbangs. And surprise, if you can possibly arrange it. There are no good ways to pass through fatal funnels where people know you are coming. Even semi-skilled defenders can kill the best operators in the world in a situation like that.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Not that this approach looks good, but wouldn't that approach be almost certain to fail in any situation that called for it? By opening the door you compromise your surprise, and armed people in the room hold every advantage as they wait for you to expose yourself.

GURPS Tactical Shooting covers the way SWAT, military, etc handle situations like this, and it's as mburr described. "Slicing the pie" allows you to visually scan most of the room before entering while still benefitting from cover. After that, you enter the room facing the direction of one of the blind spots (the corners on your side of the room) from your initial scan. If you see a target there, you engage; if not, take a quick look over your shoulder to make certain there's nobody hiding in the other corner (if so, you can quickly turn and engage). It's better with two people, as each can enter in quick succession and cover their own corner, but if you're alone, that's the way you'd need to do it. Absent a better entry point (like an open window), some way to see inside before you open the door, and/or grenades, that's probably the best way to enter an uncleared room. It's not ideal, which is probably a big factor in why Military Operations in Urban Terrain (MOUT) tend to be so dangerous, but it seems to be the best we've come up with. Do you have a better way to enter an uncleared room in mind?

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

Yeah, this is pure Hollywoodism.

I'm reminded of the recent fad for holding pistols parallel to the ground, back of the hand facing up. So gangsta! This scene seems like an attempt at the rifle version. Just doesn't have that same swagger, though.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Varyon

GURPS Tactical Shooting covers the way SWAT, military, etc handle situations like this, and it's as mburr described. "Slicing the pie" allows you to visually scan most of the room before entering while still benefitting from cover. After that, you enter the room facing the direction of one of the blind spots (the corners on your side of the room) from your initial scan. If you see a target there, you engage; if not, take a quick look over your shoulder to make certain there's nobody hiding in the other corner (if so, you can quickly turn and engage). It's better with two people, as each can enter in quick succession and cover their own corner, but if you're alone, that's the way you'd need to do it. Absent a better entry point (like an open window), some way to see inside before you open the door, and/or grenades, that's probably the best way to enter an uncleared room. It's not ideal, which is probably a big factor in why Military Operations in Urban Terrain (MOUT) tend to be so dangerous, but it seems to be the best we've come up with. Do you have a better way to enter an uncleared room in mind?

What I'm suggesting is that play-acting the full formal caution is only smart if the full formal caution actually works in your favor, and I question whether that's true here. (Doing it even when its not helpful can be a sign of being trained in good doctrine, though.)

This guy has no ordnance, no backup, no choice of weapon, and the way he's acting should imply (but IDK about the film context) that he thinks it's realistic to stumble over a hostile shooter at any point implying surprise is limited. And he's moving fast, so maybe time is too.

With all of that? He still might be better off side-opening the door and re-shouldering his gun before clearing the corner, because wow is that a bad-looking shooting posture. But 'pie-slice everything' seems like a way to make him slow and predictable at each entry without the firepower to back it up.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

What I'm suggesting is that play-acting the full formal caution is only smart if the full formal caution actually works in your favor, and I question whether that's true here. (Doing it even when its not helpful can be a sign of being trained in good doctrine, though.)

This guy has no ordnance, no backup, no choice of weapon, and the way he's acting should imply (but IDK about the film context) that he thinks it's realistic to stumble over a hostile shooter at any point implying surprise is limited. And he's moving fast, so maybe time is too.

With all of that? He still might be better off side-opening the door and re-shouldering his gun before clearing the corner, because wow is that a bad-looking shooting posture. But 'pie-slice everything' seems like a way to make him slow and predictable at each entry without the firepower to back it up.

If there were a shooter in there watching the door - in GURPS terms, having a Wait - who wasn't more-or-less directly behind the door, the way he entered the shooter would have seen him before he saw them, and he would have been shot (or at least shot at). If slicing the pie, they would roughly see each other at the same time* and it would be a matter of skill and reflexes (and intent - if either is trying to verify the target's identity before shooting, that will delay them pulling the trigger) as to who shot first. Which isn't a good situation to be in (in GURPS terms, it's a Cascading Waits situation), but it's a lot better to hope you're faster than the other guy than to just hope the other guy misses!

At least, that's my understanding, but I'm by no means an expert.

EDIT: For sake of reference, there are two ways given to "slice the pie" in Tactical Shooting. The first is slow and cautious, using a series of Waits and moving only a Step at a time. The second is faster, using a Move and Attack (you suffer from Bulk on your attack, and you are penalized on your Per check to see the target(s)) to get the whole thing over with in one second rather than several. When dealing with a door rather than a corner, this is followed up by entering at an angle so you can see one blind spot readily and can do a quick check of the other by looking behind your back; I think this is done as a Wait. Our guy here looks to be intending to go straight in with a Move, leaving him only able to spare a glance toward each blind spot and meaning if he does engage (after anyone Waiting has already had a chance to shoot him) he'll be penalized by Bulk (although at least that grip should give a +1 to Bulk... but that benefit is probably lost thanks to taking a -1 to Guns for holding the gun "gangsta style"). He lucks out and there happens to be a guy in the middle of leaving the room, and who in fact (upon rewatching) actually opens the door for him.


*If the shooter is in the "wrong" corner, they'll be at an advantage against the guy entering the room, as he has to rely on a momentary glance, but it's not the guarantee they'll get to go first that it is if he just barges right in.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Varyon

If there were a shooter in there watching the door - in GURPS terms, having a Wait - who wasn't more-or-less directly behind the door, the way he entered the shooter would have seen him before he saw them, and he would have been shot (or at least shot at). If slicing the pie, they would roughly see each other at the same time* and it would be a matter of skill and reflexes (and intent - if either is trying to verify the target's identity before shooting, that will delay them pulling the trigger) as to who shot first. Which isn't a good situation to be in (in GURPS terms, it's a Cascading Waits situation), but it's a lot better to hope you're faster than the other guy than to just hope the other guy misses!

At least, that's my understanding, but I'm by no means an expert.

Slicing the pie, of course, uses new rules it made up but then didn't write down. I'm kind of bitter about that.

The rule as written is wildly generous - it essentially allows you to completely ignore the other party's Wait advantage while effectively performing Attack maneuvers. I remember people arguing you shouldn't be able to get ahead of somebody else's Wait even at a heavy penalty, here you're doing it at no penalty.

But even with that since they don't need to round the corner they can be not just waiting, but waiting positioned specifically to defeat you, because you telegraphed what you're doing and took enough time about it that they'll have probably cleared any surprise before shots are fired.

Entering without the radial search amounts to gambling that partial surprise is possible and more likely to help you in the initial exchange. Basically, you think nobody is already covering the door, and you want to clear it while that's still true. The thing is, I think that gamble can be correct.

Originally Posted by Varyon

EDIT: For sake of reference, there are two ways given to "slice the pie" in Tactical Shooting. The first is slow and cautious, using a series of Waits and moving only a Step at a time. The second is faster, using a Move and Attack (you suffer from Bulk on your attack, and you are penalized on your Per check to see the target(s)) to get the whole thing over with in one second rather than several. When dealing with a door rather than a corner, this is followed up by entering at an angle so you can see one blind spot readily and can do a quick check of the other by looking behind your back; I think this is done as a Wait. Our guy here looks to be intending to go straight in with a Move, leaving him only able to spare a glance toward each blind spot and meaning if he does engage (after anyone Waiting has already had a chance to shoot him) he'll be penalized by Bulk (although at least that grip should give a +1 to Bulk... but that benefit is probably lost thanks to taking a -1 to Guns for holding the gun "gangsta style"). He lucks out and there happens to be a guy in the middle of leaving the room, and who in fact (upon rewatching) actually opens the door for him.


*If the shooter is in the "wrong" corner, they'll be at an advantage against the guy entering the room, as he has to rely on a momentary glance, but it's not the guarantee they'll get to go first that it is if he just barges right in.

Doing the fast sweep variant on a door seems pointless unless 'don't go into the room' is an option.

It looks like the fast sweep variant also means that if someone is waiting you don't get to steal their initiative, though the text doesn't make a point of noting that, it just comes from the paragraph before's phrasing of "If both of you chose to Wait".

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Slicing the pie, of course, uses new rules it made up but then didn't write down. I'm kind of bitter about that.

The rule as written is wildly generous - it essentially allows you to completely ignore the other party's Wait advantage while effectively performing Attack maneuvers. I remember people arguing you shouldn't be able to get ahead of somebody else's Wait even at a heavy penalty, here you're doing it at no penalty.

What did it make up but forget to write down? It introduced the idea of being able to Step as part of a Wait (but not being able to get any movement out of the Wait if triggered), but the Sense roll is arguably just an extension of the Situational Awareness rules, and using it to resolve the Cascading Waits seems in keeping with Martial Arts (technically that would call for a Guns roll, but using the "I see the target" roll makes more sense to me).

There is the issue that this allows someone to override a Wait by taking one of their own, but I feel the situation warrants it. The important distinction between this and the various abusive ways to use Wait to try to override someone else's ("I'll shoot him if he tries anything" "OK then, I'll shoot him when the clock's second hand reaches the 12 o'clock position - now it's Cascading Waits and I can potentially outdraw him") is that neither character can see the other when the two Waits are declared. In fact, this is a situation where the defender could override the aggressor's Wait as well - if you don't have a Wait to shoot at whoever comes through the door, then the door pops open and nobody comes through, you could take aim and do that Wait, even if the guy on the other side has already declared their Wait as part of slicing the pie... and it's still a Cascading Waits situation.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

But even with that since they don't need to round the corner they can be not just waiting, but waiting positioned specifically to defeat you, because you telegraphed what you're doing and took enough time about it that they'll have probably cleared any surprise before shots are fired.

Personally, I think the penalty for checking your target first should apply in the Quick Contest regardless of which skill you're using, and this is where the "positioned specifically to defeat you" bit would come into play - if they know it's you coming through, they don't need to check their fire, but unless you know there's nobody and nothing inside that you'd rather not shoot, you would need to do so. Additionally, they can turn their Wait into an Aim at the doorway and get +Acc (or more) while you're stuck using base Guns skill. So a prepared defender would still have an advantage here.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Entering without the radial search amounts to gambling that partial surprise is possible and more likely to help you in the initial exchange. Basically, you think nobody is already covering the door, and you want to clear it while that's still true. The thing is, I think that gamble can be correct.

Playing the lottery can be a correct gamble as well, but only if you win... and normally you won't. Granted, your chances of surprising anyone in the room is much higher than winning the lottery, but then the cost of losing the lottery gamble is $1 or $2 while the cost of losing the room-entry gamble is likely your life.

Essentially, if you decide to Leeroy Jenkins it and just run right in, you're betting that a) nobody had a Wait ready for you, b) you'll manage to achieve at least Partial Surprise, and c) your foes will be mentally stunned long enough for you to take them all out, get to some cover, get out, etc.

But then, if you opening the door and barging in would surprise the foe, so would the door simply opening (if they can't immediately recognize you barging in and shooting their friends as a threat, they aren't going to immediately recognize the door opening as a threat). "Slicing the pie" gives them more time to recover from their surprise, yes, but it also means you're less likely to get gunned down by the first one to shake it off.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Doing the fast sweep variant on a door seems pointless unless 'don't go into the room' is an option.

In a situation where barging in wouldn't have immediately caused you to get ventilated (nobody Waiting for you), the fast sweep gives you a look into the room to engage threats before entering. In a situation where it would have caused you to get ventilated, you'll get the benefit of cover against OpFor's attacks if they aren't in the blind spots, and if they are in the blind spots they won't be able to see to attack you either, and will be dealt with via Cascading Waits when you make entry next turn. It gives you more opportunity to capitalize on any applicable Surprise than taking your time with Waits would, but leaves you less vulnerable to enemy Waits than just Jenkins'ing your way in would. It basically serves as a middle ground between the two options.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

It looks like the fast sweep variant also means that if someone is waiting you don't get to steal their initiative, though the text doesn't make a point of noting that, it just comes from the paragraph before's phrasing of "If both of you chose to Wait".

I agree that the Move and Attack variant shouldn't invoke Cascading Waits - your first foe (you should stop moving once you see the first) should automatically get to attack before you do. The text could have potentially made this more explicit, but I think the way it's written supports that Cascading Waits only comes into play if you're doing the slow version of "slicing the pie."