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Old 10-11-2024, 04:25 PM   #21
Icelander
 
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Default Re: Hip Shooting of Long Arms from the Shoulder?

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Personally, I think the penalty for checking your target first should apply in the Quick Contest regardless of which skill you're using, and this is where the "positioned specifically to defeat you" bit would come into play - if they know it's you coming through, they don't need to check their fire, but unless you know there's nobody and nothing inside that you'd rather not shoot, you would need to do so. Additionally, they can turn their Wait into an Aim at the doorway and get +Acc (or more) while you're stuck using base Guns skill. So a prepared defender would still have an advantage here.
A truly mean defender will fire as soon as someone starts trying to open a door. Doesn't matter that you don't see them, you see the door, and wooden doors don't stop rifle bullets. Back in 3e, so around the turn of the last century, a half-trained thug with an AK killed a PC who was some kind of Tier 1-esque ultra-elite operator, by just firing a long burst at the door and hoping some of the bullets connected. Which they did.
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Old 10-11-2024, 11:57 PM   #22
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Default Re: Hip Shooting of Long Arms from the Shoulder?

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
What did it make up but forget to write down? It introduced the idea of being able to Step as part of a Wait (but not being able to get any movement out of the Wait if triggered),
That, yes.
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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
There is the issue that this allows someone to override a Wait by taking one of their own, but I feel the situation warrants it. The important distinction between this and the various abusive ways to use Wait to try to override someone else's ("I'll shoot him if he tries anything" "OK then, I'll shoot him when the clock's second hand reaches the 12 o'clock position - now it's Cascading Waits and I can potentially outdraw him") is that neither character can see the other when the two Waits are declared.
...So what?
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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
In fact, this is a situation where the defender could override the aggressor's Wait as well - if you don't have a Wait to shoot at whoever comes through the door, then the door pops open and nobody comes through, you could take aim and do that Wait, even if the guy on the other side has already declared their Wait as part of slicing the pie... and it's still a Cascading Waits situation.
Not in the story you laid out: the Wait the attacker declared while out of view isn't triggered, because they have no line of sight. Their Wait that goes off will always be the Wait they just declared on the same turn.

(The benefit of it being a Wait other than questionable logic about priority conflicts is that if the 'defender' counter-assaults while you're mid-slice, you're always ready to shoot.)
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Playing the lottery can be a correct gamble as well, but only if you win... and normally you won't. Granted, your chances of surprising anyone in the room is much higher than winning the lottery, but then the cost of losing the lottery gamble is $1 or $2 while the cost of losing the room-entry gamble is likely your life.
No, gambling can be the correct choice even when it doesn't pay off. And in this case, that's not even a sensible framing because you're staking your life on this process regardless of which way you play it.

Unless calling the whole thing off is on the table (in which case, obviously, it's a strong option compared to solo room clearing with barely any kit regardless of tactics) the question isn't 'is this dangerous', it is 'which way gives the best chance of clearing the room without dying'.

And there is absolutely no reason to think that that is going to be the same as the way which gives the best chance of not getting shot in the first second.
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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Additionally, they can turn their Wait into an Aim at the doorway and get +Acc (or more) while you're stuck using base Guns skill. So a prepared defender would still have an advantage here.
That's what I said, though I was waving in the direction of cover more than aim, both may be options.
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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
In a situation where barging in wouldn't have immediately caused you to get ventilated (nobody Waiting for you), the fast sweep gives you a look into the room to engage threats before entering. In a situation where it would have caused you to get ventilated, you'll get the benefit of cover against OpFor's attacks if they aren't in the blind spots, and if they are in the blind spots they won't be able to see to attack you either, and will be dealt with via Cascading Waits when you make entry next turn. It gives you more opportunity to capitalize on any applicable Surprise than taking your time with Waits would, but leaves you less vulnerable to enemy Waits than just Jenkins'ing your way in would. It basically serves as a middle ground between the two options.
So:
-What's the advantage of engaging targets from outside the room, given that you're going to go into the room?
-How do you get the benefit of cover, exactly? You're going to run fully into the open.
-You will not be able to claim cascading waits when you enter the room with a Move and Attack, no, regardless of whether you did a radial search.

When applied to a door it does have the advantage if nobody's Waiting of letting you end your turn in total cover relative to the room by fully crossing the doorway to the wall on the other side, so that's something.
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Old 10-12-2024, 06:15 AM   #23
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Default Re: Hip Shooting of Long Arms from the Shoulder?

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
A truly mean defender will fire as soon as someone starts trying to open a door. Doesn't matter that you don't see them, you see the door, and wooden doors don't stop rifle bullets. Back in 3e, so around the turn of the last century, a half-trained thug with an AK killed a PC who was some kind of Tier 1-esque ultra-elite operator, by just firing a long burst at the door and hoping some of the bullets connected. Which they did.
Yeah, this is always a risk. Of course, the defender will have to guess where you are and probably have their skill capped at 9+RoF bonus even if they guess correctly, and using Dodge and Drop can get you out of their line of fire so further attacks won't hit you (unless they manage to successfully guess where you are, which is now harder than it was before, plus you're prone and thus harder to hit anyway).

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
That, yes.
But it wrote it down. It explicitly states this is a special Wait, and describes how it works (you get to take your Step now, but cannot get any movement from it being triggered).

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
...So what?
So neither character knows the other is taking a Wait. And they both have the chance to see each other at exactly the same time. If I'm Waiting while slicing the pie, and you're Waiting on the other side, I don't think it should matter which one of us happened to declare our Wait first.

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Not in the story you laid out: the Wait the attacker declared while out of view isn't triggered, because they have no line of sight. Their Wait that goes off will always be the Wait they just declared on the same turn.
The situation is, you're in a room, and the door suddenly pops open. You draw your weapon and take aim at the doorway, intending to shoot anyone who comes through - this is a Wait (and may turn into an Aim). Unknown to you, OpFor on the other side has already started a Wait and is in the process of slicing the pie, but hasn't yet entered your field of view. Next turn, they continue their Wait and take another Step, and this time there's line of sight between you. With your suggestion that nobody should ever be able to preempt a Wait, the fact they started their Wait first would mean they automatically get to shoot you first. But instead this should be (and is) a Cascading Waits situation, giving you the chance to preempt their Wait, even though they started before you.

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
No, gambling can be the correct choice even when it doesn't pay off. And in this case, that's not even a sensible framing because you're staking your life on this process regardless of which way you play it.
GURPS Tactical Shooting notes slicing the pie to be the safest way to check an uncleared corner. I really don't see how just barging right in could be statistically safer. It can be in certain situations (namely, when you have the element of surprise and there are few enough targets that you can neutralize them before they recover), but it really doesn't seem like the way to bet.

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
And there is absolutely no reason to think that that is going to be the same as the way which gives the best chance of not getting shot in the first second.
Slicing the pie exposes you (partially) to one foe at a time; shouting out "Leeeeeroy Jeeeeenkins" exposes you fully to every foe at once. You really think the latter is statistically less likely to get you shot?

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
-What's the advantage of engaging targets from outside the room, given that you're going to go into the room?
You can engage them one at a time, rather than all at once. Considering you can generally only shoot at one target at a time, this is to your advantage. Nearby foes may be able to move into line of sight to attack you, but unless they're very close to the target, they will probably need to use Move and Attack to do so, which is penalized (and in any case, moving will spoil their Aim if they had done so). Also, depending on where in the process you are, they may not be able to fit very many of them in sight of you.

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
-How do you get the benefit of cover, exactly? You're going to run fully into the open.
You stop moving once you see someone. If that someone had a Wait, they get to take a shot at you, but as you have some cover, it's penalized. If they didn't, you get to shoot first, and you're left only (partially) exposed to that foe, rather than in the middle of a room with potentially multiple foes around you. That assumes you see them, of course - if you fail to do so (which is more likely with this method, as the Per check is penalized), you'll keep moving and be fully exposed in time for them to put a bullet in you.

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
-You will not be able to claim cascading waits when you enter the room with a Move and Attack, no, regardless of whether you did a radial search.
I stated before that entering the room should be doable with a Wait and Step. However, rereading that section, it appears it does indeed have you do a Move and Attack instead, so you are correct that you would be unable to preempt their Wait. I think you'd still be able to benefit from cover - you can stop moving and engage as soon as you see the target, giving both of you light cover (upgraded to medium with Barrier Tactics), as normal for slicing the pie.
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Old 10-12-2024, 03:11 PM   #24
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Default Re: Hip Shooting of Long Arms from the Shoulder?

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
But it wrote it down. It explicitly states this is a special Wait, and describes how it works (you get to take your Step now, but cannot get any movement from it being triggered).
What it wrote down: "The step is s special Wait maneuver that allows no movement if triggered."

That's the entire thing. In passing in the middle of something else.

This is not how you go about defining an important new maneuver option. We've seen how you do that!

(I wasn't there, but it reads like 'a playtester pointed out after the fact that step and wait isn't a thing, and the author crammed in the smallest acknowledgement of that they could manage rather than making any bigger changes'.)
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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
So neither character knows the other is taking a Wait. And they both have the chance to see each other at exactly the same time. If I'm Waiting while slicing the pie, and you're Waiting on the other side, I don't think it should matter which one of us happened to declare our Wait first.
Why would knowing the other is taking a Wait matter?
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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
The situation is, you're in a room, and the door suddenly pops open. You draw your weapon and take aim at the doorway, intending to shoot anyone who comes through - this is a Wait (and may turn into an Aim). Unknown to you, OpFor on the other side has already started a Wait and is in the process of slicing the pie, but hasn't yet entered your field of view. Next turn, they continue their Wait and take another Step, and this time there's line of sight between you. With your suggestion that nobody should ever be able to preempt a Wait, the fact they started their Wait first would mean they automatically get to shoot you first. But instead this should be (and is) a Cascading Waits situation, giving you the chance to preempt their Wait, even though they started before you.
There's no such thing as continuing a Wait. A Wait is a maneuver. At the start of your turn, last turn's Wait is over. You can Wait on the same condition, sure, but only in exactly the same way that you could if you hadn't Waited the prior turn.
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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
GURPS Tactical Shooting notes slicing the pie to be the safest way to check an uncleared corner. I really don't see how just barging right in could be statistically safer. It can be in certain situations (namely, when you have the element of surprise and there are few enough targets that you can neutralize them before they recover), but it really doesn't seem like the way to bet.
Just barging in could be statistically safer if you are virtually guaranteed to lose if you don't have and retain surprise.

Which, I contest, is obviously the case if you're attempting to clear rooms alone without even any grenades (or superpowers). You can't win a firefight, so your only tactic is to try to prevent one developing.

This isn't how professional tactical shooters would normally do it, because professional tactical shooters don't normally assault into superior numbers with no armor, one gun, no ordinance, and no rear security.

On the other hand, see the Counterattack drill on p22: when ambushed, charge into the ambush laying down firepower. That's crazy dangerous, right? Yes, it sure is:
"The Counterattack drill is primarily an
emergency special-ops maneuver. Ordinary
infantry units, which are often quite large,
can afford to first seek cover and find better
firing positions before they attack (or even
dig in and wait for heavy weapons support).
The smaller the unit (such as a reconnaissance
patrol deep in enemy territory), the
more essential it is to quickly extinguish the
threat and to get out of the enemy’s kill
zone. It forces the ambushers into cover
and disturbs their fire."
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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Slicing the pie exposes you (partially) to one foe at a time; shouting out "Leeeeeroy Jeeeeenkins" exposes you fully to every foe at once. You really think the latter is statistically less likely to get you shot?
It is in the case where everyone is stunned and doing so lets you shoot them while that's still true.

Which isn't what you want to bet your life on except when it's the only winning hand.
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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
You can engage them one at a time, rather than all at once. Considering you can generally only shoot at one target at a time, this is to your advantage. Nearby foes may be able to move into line of sight to attack you, but unless they're very close to the target, they will probably need to use Move and Attack to do so, which is penalized (and in any case, moving will spoil their Aim if they had done so). Also, depending on where in the process you are, they may not be able to fit very many of them in sight of you.
Only if they're positioned for your convenience instead of their own. On the room breach, as soon as they're aware of what's happening any survivors can position in places that deny you that advantage.
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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
You stop moving once you see someone. If that someone had a Wait, they get to take a shot at you, but as you have some cover, it's penalized. If they didn't, you get to shoot first, and you're left only (partially) exposed to that foe, rather than in the middle of a room with potentially multiple foes around you. That assumes you see them, of course - if you fail to do so (which is more likely with this method, as the Per check is penalized), you'll keep moving and be fully exposed in time for them to put a bullet in you.
Do you? That's hardly a given for Move and Attack, and I'm not sure it's desirable when you've got movement available and no backup. If you're changing your move destination as soon as you see someone, you probably should be aiming to get back to the cover you started in, not stop and stand gormlessly in the open where everyone can counter-attack you easily.
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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I stated before that entering the room should be doable with a Wait and Step. However, rereading that section, it appears it does indeed have you do a Move and Attack instead, so you are correct that you would be unable to preempt their Wait. I think you'd still be able to benefit from cover - you can stop moving and engage as soon as you see the target, giving both of you light cover (upgraded to medium with Barrier Tactics), as normal for slicing the pie.
I mean, you technically could enter the room with Wait and Step. It's just not what is recommended because the door is a bad place to be. And the normal drills expect more than one person, too, so you need to pass the door fast so the next shooter can come through it behind you.
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Old 10-12-2024, 03:29 PM   #25
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Default Re: Hip Shooting of Long Arms from the Shoulder?

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
(I wasn't there, but it reads like 'a playtester pointed out after the fact that step and wait isn't a thing, and the author crammed in the smallest acknowledgement of that they could manage rather than making any bigger changes'.)
I honestly don't remember this particular instance, but I can confirm that during the Tactical Shooting playtest, lots of experts and devoted playtesters raised subjects and the authors were excellent about adding everything that made the product better.

A somewhat unfortunate consequence of that embarrasment of riches, in great material from the hard-working writers and editors which needed to fit, was that wordcount was tight enough so that literally dozens of 'technically small tweaks of existing rules' were inserted with exactly that sort of economy of space.
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