Hip Shooting of Long Arms from the Shoulder?

[Plane]

Tactical Shooting page 12 has rules for holding long-arms closer to the body (at the hip) which page 13 explains gives you defensive benefits - you get a bonus to retain weapon and enemies have a penalty to parry you.

Plus beyond that I get the sense maybe it also influences what hex the weapon occupies - ie who you're actually in parrying range of.

I guess my question is - what happens when you're holding a gun this close to your body, but it actually is raised to the shoulder?

I noticed this happening in a scene in The Old Man where a guy approaches a door while holding his rifle - you see him switch to a one-handed grip to free his hand to open the door, and then you see him pull the gun backward.


https://youtu.be/To_d1a9Yn_I

This actually makes a lot of sense because then obviously the door won't hit the tip of the rifle as you're opening the door, it's harder for someone behind the door to reach out and grab the gun, etc...

But mechanically what differences do you think this would make for combat?

[Anaraxes]

In the clip, the rifle isn't held the way I thought of when I read "raised to the shoulder". It's more or less the same as the hip position (not braced against the shoulder to absorb recoil, no cheek weld, no sight position, etc). So I'd just treat it as shooting from the hip.

If you really wanted a distinction, you might give that hold a minor penalty to skill just for the apparent awkwardness. Might be painful when that carry handle catches the shooter in the chin on recoil.

[Donny Brook]

If he fired from that position, I'd just call it shooting one-handed. Maybe give the Bracing benefit for having the stock in contact with the forearm, but no Aim bonus obviusly.

[Varyon]

That position could be argued to give +1 Bulk (it essentially results in using it as though it had no stock) for purposes of engaging at close quarters. It looks like it would allow for sighting using the barrel, but lack of actual sights is going to mean lowered Acc (in addition to the -1 Acc for not using the stock). That's all probably being pretty lenient; I wouldn't be surprised to learn such a position would be an absolutely horrible idea - it looks primed for limp-wristing, for a general -1 Guns and -1 Malf (see Gangsta Shooting, TS32-33). Hollywood typically isn't known for good gun handling, after all (also, the fact he keeps that weird stance after opening the door seems off - he looks like he has enough time and space to transition back to the more proper stance he was using at the beginning of the clip). All that said, I'm by no means an expert.

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Hollywood typically isn't known for good gun handling, after all (also, the fact he keeps that weird stance after opening the door seems off - he looks like he has enough time and space to transition back to the more proper stance he was using at the beginning of the clip). All that said, I'm by no means an expert.

Yeah, this is pure Hollywoodism. In a "solo room clearing" situation like that, if he were trained he'd have positioned to the left of the door, keep the rifle at his shoulder, leaned and open the door with his left hand, returned to up rigth stance, regripped his rifle with his left while sidestepping right to begin "slicing the pie".

Just opening and stepping in, regardless of the 'efficacy' of the weird one-handed rifle grip, is muay nono.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

Yeah, this is pure Hollywoodism. In a "solo room clearing" situation like that, if he were trained he'd have positioned to the left of the door, keep the rifle at his shoulder, leaned and open the door with his left hand, returned to up rigth stance, regripped his rifle with his left while sidestepping right to begin "slicing the pie".

Just opening and stepping in, regardless of the 'efficacy' of the weird one-handed rifle grip, is muay nono.

Not that this approach looks good, but wouldn't that approach be almost certain to fail in any situation that called for it? By opening the door you compromise your surprise, and armed people in the room hold every advantage as they wait for you to expose yourself.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Not that this approach looks good, but wouldn't that approach be almost certain to fail in any situation that called for it? By opening the door you compromise your surprise, and armed people in the room hold every advantage as they wait for you to expose yourself.

Don't clear rooms without backup, ideally overwhelming force, and plenty of ordnance, at least flashbangs. And surprise, if you can possibly arrange it. There are no good ways to pass through fatal funnels where people know you are coming. Even semi-skilled defenders can kill the best operators in the world in a situation like that.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Not that this approach looks good, but wouldn't that approach be almost certain to fail in any situation that called for it? By opening the door you compromise your surprise, and armed people in the room hold every advantage as they wait for you to expose yourself.

GURPS Tactical Shooting covers the way SWAT, military, etc handle situations like this, and it's as mburr described. "Slicing the pie" allows you to visually scan most of the room before entering while still benefitting from cover. After that, you enter the room facing the direction of one of the blind spots (the corners on your side of the room) from your initial scan. If you see a target there, you engage; if not, take a quick look over your shoulder to make certain there's nobody hiding in the other corner (if so, you can quickly turn and engage). It's better with two people, as each can enter in quick succession and cover their own corner, but if you're alone, that's the way you'd need to do it. Absent a better entry point (like an open window), some way to see inside before you open the door, and/or grenades, that's probably the best way to enter an uncleared room. It's not ideal, which is probably a big factor in why Military Operations in Urban Terrain (MOUT) tend to be so dangerous, but it seems to be the best we've come up with. Do you have a better way to enter an uncleared room in mind?

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

Yeah, this is pure Hollywoodism.

I'm reminded of the recent fad for holding pistols parallel to the ground, back of the hand facing up. So gangsta! This scene seems like an attempt at the rifle version. Just doesn't have that same swagger, though.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

In the clip, the rifle isn't held the way I thought of when I read "raised to the shoulder".
It's more or less the same as the hip position (not braced against the shoulder to absorb recoil, no cheek weld, no sight position, etc).
So I'd just treat it as shooting from the hip.

If you really wanted a distinction, you might give that hold a minor penalty to skill just for the apparent awkwardness. Might be painful when that carry handle catches the shooter in the chin on recoil.

Yeah that's probably why as soon as the door opens he returns his hand to brace the gun so that wouldn't happen if he fired?

I'm just trying to think benefit-wise, surely there's a reason one would do this as compared to just keeping the gun at hip-level, either in terms of aiming or at least intimidation factor?

When we open a door we're prone to looking at eye level, perhaps missing a gun held at hip level, so if we wanted someone to notice a gun aimed at them, keeping the gun elevated in the eyeline would be an asset in intimidating someone you surprise into compliance?

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

If he fired from that position, I'd just call it shooting one-handed. Maybe give the Bracing benefit for having the stock in contact with the forearm, but no Aim bonus obviusly.

That's a great point about the forearm-stock contact. Side-shooting would have that unique benefit with a rifle that makes it more sensible than side-shooting with a pistol!

Originally Posted by Varyon

Hollywood typically isn't known for good gun handling, after all (also, the fact he keeps that weird stance after opening the door seems off -
he looks like he has enough time and space to transition back to the more proper stance he was using at the beginning of the clip).

It's like he's got tunnel vision keeping the barrel trained at the guy's face at close-quarters, even a small adjustment like rotating the gun 90 degrees into the usual upwards position could be seen as some kinda distraction from this focus, perhaps?