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Old 12-29-2022, 02:22 PM   #21
JulianLW
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Rapid Healing, Recovery, Regeneration and Regrowth

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
As I noted, it makes perfect sense if VRH is Rapid Healing [5] + HP+10 (Only for determining healing rate -50%) [10]. And I don't think I'd call the DFRPG/MH modification a nerf - my reading of VRH is that it only applies to the daily recovery roll, not things like Regeneration, Bandaging/Treating Shock, quaffing potions, receiving healing spells, etc. Having a character with VRH and HP 30 only heal at a rate of up to 4 HP per day instead of 6 HP per day is a nerf, but is more than made up for by the fact that more accessible healing options (which are available in DFRPG and MH) enjoy a boost, such that every 3 HP of such healing (1 HP nominal healing, x3 for having HP 30) counts as 4 HP (also, I suspect characters with HP 30+ are fairly rare even in such settings). That said, you could certainly try to convince your GM that having VRH double all healing is the way to go; if the GM opts to stick with how DFRPG/MH does it, just don't take VRH on your character (and if that was necessary for your character concept, well, that means your character concept doesn't work for the setting - which is unfortunate, but sometimes that's just how things go; if I were playing in a DFRPG game and the GM wouldn't let me use Weapon Adaptation to get the +2 Parry of staves when wielding a spear, I'd just... build a character other than a spearman).
Yes, I follow the argument made here and in the thread I linked to, but I just don't think it's a very good one ... especially given the relative costs of all the other traits available for healing - and a comparison of Very Rapid Healing to Regeneration (or simply buying more HP) is what prompted my comment.

Consider: for the same 25 points you might pay to get VR Healing 2, which I really do think should triple all healing, magical or otherwise, you could get Regular Regeneration [25], which allows you to recover 1 HP per hour ... which gets multiplied by your high HP bonus. For 5 more points, you could buy Healing [30] and heal all your friends of as many HP as you can afford in Fatigue.

So, yeah, I think VR Healing did get nerfed - especially when you consider that the MORE someone spends on high HP, the relatively more useless Very Rapid Healing gets, while Healing and Regeneration become more and more valuable.

I don't see any problem with a flat multiplier effect. The person who has 50 HP has spent at least 80 CP to get there. Add that to the 15 for Very Rapid Healing or the 25 for Very Rapid Healing 2 and you're just above or below the 100 for Very Fast Regeneration - 1 HP per second. Compare that 1 HP per second (the PC with HP 10 and Fast Regeneration [100]) to 10 or 15 HP per day (the PC with 50 HP [80] and Very Rapid Healing [15]) for natural healing. Very Rapid Healing STILL isn't holding a candle to Regeneration ( and I know, I know: the 50 HP gives a lot of additional benefits, sure).

As written, the PC who paid for HP 50 [80] and Very Rapid Healing 2 [25] will heal 7 HP a day naturally - while the person with Regeneration [100] heals 1 HP per second - like, during combat, even. Sure you can argue that magic would make a multiplier unfair - but that multiplier still exists: buy HP +10 [20] and you have a multiplier effect on magical healing. Also, the guy who gets Regeneration probably doesn't need magical healing AT ALL.

So, yeah. I think it's really puzzling that VR Healing got nerfed like this.

Last edited by JulianLW; 12-29-2022 at 02:30 PM. Reason: Edited for grammar.
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Old 12-29-2022, 02:25 PM   #22
JulianLW
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Rapid Healing, Recovery, Regeneration and Regrowth

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
<shrug> ... I'm happy enough with VRH being 10 pts for ... "For _all_ healing multiply by HP/10 (round down)". Smooshing those together is not rules clarification.
Thanks for confirming that I'm not the only person who thinks it should be this way.
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Old 12-29-2022, 03:05 PM   #23
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Rapid Healing, Recovery, Regeneration and Regrowth

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Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
Yes, I follow the argument made here and in the thread I linked to, but I just don't think it's a very good one ... especially given the relative costs of all the other traits available for healing - and a comparison of Very Rapid Healing to Regeneration (or simply buying more HP) is what prompted my comment.
Yeah, I mentioned earlier in the thread that VRH is poorly priced when compared to things like Regeneration, but as Kromm pointed out in the thread you linked, the original 4e VRH was only meant to apply to natural healing, not healing from other sources. Changing it to apply to other sources makes it a lot better in situations where those other sources are available (which is largely the case for MH - where a witch with Path of Body can manage a modest healing ritual pretty easily - and DFRPG - where in addition to clerics you've also got potions and the like).

If you're coming from the viewpoint that VRH should have applied to all healing from the start, and also that it should be a doubling that stacks multiplicatively with healing from high HP, then that's certainly a nerf. But I've previously determined out that a trait that made magical healing be automatically doubled should base its price on IT:DR (1/2 Injury), and if magical healing counts as Rare this would be [10]... but all of magical healing, medical care, natural healing, alchemical potions, psionic healing, regeneration, etc should probably count as more common than Rare, and so a higher price would be justifiable. That doesn't mean you can't houserule it to work the way you'd prefer in your campaigns, of course, or try to convince your GM to do the same... just as you would have needed to before MH and DFRPG changed the way it worked (although back then it would have been easier to convince the GM "This is the way it's always been meant to work").
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Old 12-29-2022, 03:16 PM   #24
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Rapid Healing, Recovery, Regeneration and Regrowth

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
YI've previously determined out that a trait that made magical healing be automatically doubled should base its price .
If you have 20 HP or more you shouldn't be buying it at all. You already have that.
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Old 12-30-2022, 04:35 PM   #25
Varyon
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Rapid Healing, Recovery, Regeneration and Regrowth

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
If you have 20 HP or more you shouldn't be buying it at all. You already have that.
What I'm talking about is something that results in a multiplicative increase, rather than a linear increase. HP 20 [20] is +1 HP per HP healed, HP 30 [40] is +2 HP per HP healed, HP 40 [50] is +3 per HP healed, etc. The trait I'm suggesting is something that is a base cost (before adjusting for how common "healing" is in the campaign) of [25] for x1.5 to HP healed, [50] for x2 to HP healed, [75] to x3 to HP healed, etc*. VRH in MH and DFRPG is a linear increase, my suggestion is to come up with a price for a multiplicative increase. If Healing is overall Rare (-80%), it's [10] for x2 - which, unlike VRH, will mean a total of 4 HP restored per nominal HP healed. If Healing is overall Occasional (-60%), it's instead [20] for x2. If it's Common (-40%), it's [30] for x2; if it's Very Common (-20%), it's [40] for x2.

Of course, if you opt to interpret VRH as "x2 to any healing," the above trait is unnecessary, as you can get what you want (a character with, say, HP 40 who only needs as much healing to go from 0 to full as an HP 10 character with VRH) simply by grabbing VRH.

*RAW IT:DR would be [100] for x4, [125] for x5, [150] for x10, and follow SSR thereafter; personally, I prefer following SSR for the whole progression, for [100] for x5 and [125] for x7.
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Old 12-30-2022, 08:36 PM   #26
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Rapid Healing, Recovery, Regeneration and Regrowth

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
What I'm talking about is something that results in a multiplicative increase, rather than a linear increase.
You're comparing your hypothetical Trait to a fundamental part of the rules. High levels of HP increase all forms of "healing" including First Aid Skill and natural recovery.
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Old 01-03-2023, 07:13 AM   #27
Varyon
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Rapid Healing, Recovery, Regeneration and Regrowth

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
You're comparing your hypothetical Trait to a fundamental part of the rules. High levels of HP increase all forms of "healing" including First Aid Skill and natural recovery.
I have no idea what argument you are trying to make, here. Let's start over.

VRH, by RAW, means anytime you would normally heal 1 HP via Natural Recovery (the daily HT roll if resting all day), you instead heal 2 HP. It has no effect on healing from other sources (regeneration, potions, first aid, healing spells/powers, etc). MH and DFRPG modified the trait such that it affects all sources of healing, and clarified it's a +1 rather than a x2 - that is, it makes you heal as though you had 10 more HP than you do. Some groups had previously houseruled (many without realizing it was a houserule) that VRH affected all sources of healing, and treated it as a x2, and are therefore not pleased with it being "nerfed" in MH and DFRPG. My theoretical trait is something that would have the same effect as what the above groups had previously houseruled for VRH. It demonstrates that such a trait should probably cost a decent amount more than the [10] of VRH (when you divorce RH from it). That said, if groups have been treating VRH as doubling healing from all sources, even with characters who have HP 20+, and haven't had any issues in their games from it, such groups should absolutely feel free to keep that houserule in play.
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Old 01-03-2023, 10:54 AM   #28
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Rapid Healing, Recovery, Regeneration and Regrowth

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
VRH, by RAW, means anytime you would normally heal 1 HP via Natural Recovery (the daily HT roll if resting all day), you instead heal 2 HP. .
Technically no. The actual language of the rules text says VRH gives you the x2 multiplier any time you roll to recover HT. Rolls to recover HT are rare beyond Natural Recovery but you get extra rolls from a Ritual in Path/Book Magic.
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Old 01-03-2023, 11:21 AM   #29
Varyon
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Rapid Healing, Recovery, Regeneration and Regrowth

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Technically no. The actual language of the rules text says VRH gives you the x2 multiplier any time you roll to recover HT. Rolls to recover HT are rare beyond Natural Recovery but you get extra rolls from a Ritual in Path/Book Magic.
Kromm explained it better than I can in the thread JulianLW linked earlier, in particular here and here. If that Path/Book Ritual is one of the obscure rules Kromm mentions in the second post, you could potentially rules-lawyer your way into justifying VRH applying to the rolls from that particular Ritual - and you could potentially do the same for Regeneration by giving it the Requires HT Roll Limitation - but that doesn't mean VRH suddenly becomes fair game for every single method of restoring HP.

Also note it never says it's a x2 multiplier, just that when a successful HT roll would normally restore 1 HP, it instead restores 2 - which could easily be the +1 seen in MH/DFRPG. If you're going to rules-lawyer your way into letting the above Ritual and/or modified Regeneration benefit, for the sake of consistency continuing the rules-lawyering would mean that VRH doesn't do anything for characters with HP 20+ - they never roll to restore 1 HP, only to restore 2 (or 3 for HP 30+, etc) HP, so VRH's increased healing rate doesn't apply.
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Old 01-03-2023, 11:49 AM   #30
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Rapid Healing, Recovery, Regeneration and Regrowth

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
. If that Path/Book Ritual is one of the obscure rules Kromm mentions in the second post, you could potentially rules-lawyer your way into justifying VRH applying to the rolls from that particular Ritual -y.
Would you stop accusing me of being a rules lawyer!

I don't give a rodent's rear end about VRH not affecting healing spells. That's someone else's issue. I never felt moved to House Rule anything about it.

The part about characters with with 20 HP already getting 2x the healing any time they receive healing isn't anybody's House Rule. It's a very fundamental part of the 4e rules and has nothing to do with VRH.
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