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Old 06-17-2022, 11:29 AM   #11
Curmudgeon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Default Re: should Warp w/ Tunnel be allowed the PartialChange enhancement from Insubstantial

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Originally Posted by Aldric View Post
I'll go right ahead and quote Stargate to you and say "Why would you assume matter can travel both ways ?" :D

But yes, generally portals are seen as two ways, and there is often no tunnel, you just step through the gate and on the other side you're somewhere else. Often you can look through, sometimes you can't.

So I guess it's again a GM's job to decide what's the default for the setting and how much are the different options.

Might also be worth considering what happens when you're halfway through and the portal closes.
The OP specified Warp with the tunnel enhancement in the initial post.

At this point, it is worthwhile to review what Basic Set (for Warp p. B97-B99) and Powers (p. P89 for Tunnel enhancement) have to say on the subject.

First, Warp allows you to move from point to point without traversing the space between those points. Second, the movement occurs immediately after you make your success roll. Third, despite being named Tunnel, the enhancement only speaks of it creating a portal of about your size, which lingers for a time and can be used by anybody.

These points carry implications with them. The first is that Warp is effectively instantaneous. Once you decide to Warp (make your roll for success), it's too late to change your mind. By the time you've finished the thought, "perhaps going there isn't such a good idea", you're already there. This carries with it the implication when using Tunnel or Gate or some of the other enhancements, that you can't "partially step through." Warp is an "all or nothing" proposition. If you can prevent being Warped by leaving you rear foot in place, then no part of you Warps until the rear foot does. If you Warp as soon as you put your lead foot through the portal, you Warp, whether you move your rear foot or not.

The portal that forms with Tunnel arguably has no thickness. It's unlike a physical tunnel where there's a period where you're actually in a tunnel with two walls, a top, a bottom and two openings, one behind you and one in front of you. We deduce this from the fact that the Tunnel enhancement doesn't give a length for the tunnel. Since it doesn't specify a length, it makes no difference whether the character using the Tunnel is Move 1 and just taking a Step or Move 12 and making a full Move, as soon as he enters the tunnel, he's out the other side, just like the tunnel's creator, and unlike the tunnel's creator, no success roll is needed to Warp by means of the tunnel. GM's dramatic license to the contrary, it does not appear that you can get caught "halfway through" the tunnel.

While Stargate may ask "Why would you assume matter can travel both ways?", we have no strong reason to assume that is the case. We usually assume that the tunnel is visible at both ends, just to avoid people intersecting with people when they Warp, and since anybody can use the tunnel, we have no strong reason to assume that the lingering tunnel can't be used to return to the origin point. Granted, it isn't a "give me", but its not an unreasonable assumption on the face of it.
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Old 06-17-2022, 10:45 PM   #12
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: should Warp w/ Tunnel be allowed the PartialChange enhancement from Insubstantial

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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
This carries with it the implication when using Tunnel or Gate or some of the other enhancements, that you can't "partially step through." Warp is an "all or nothing" proposition. If you can prevent being Warped by leaving you rear foot in place, then no part of you Warps until the rear foot does. If you Warp as soon as you put your lead foot through the portal, you Warp, whether you move your rear foot or not.
This brings up some interesting questions about grappling and trying to force enemies through portals, like if you just need to pull their hand through and the portal does the rest of the work, or get 100% of their body through, etc.

If it is "just a finger poke and it sucks you in" then it also makes me wonder how the portal figures out where "you" stops, like in cases where we have swarms as insects considered a singular character/body.
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Old 06-18-2022, 12:43 AM   #13
Curmudgeon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Default Re: should Warp w/ Tunnel be allowed the PartialChange enhancement from Insubstantial

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
This brings up some interesting questions about grappling and trying to force enemies through portals, like if you just need to pull their hand through and the portal does the rest of the work, or get 100% of their body through, etc.
You can't "pull their hand through", though. If you reach into the portal to grasp his hand, either Warp activates and you end up at his location or, if Warp doesn't activate until you're fully within the portal, you don't Warp and aren't present to grip his hand to pull on it.

Now, if you're on the same side of the portal and are trying to force your enemy through the portal, you can, at least in theory. In that case, you need to get as much of your foe into the portal as anyone would need to use the Warp.

As an additional point, Powers gives only three enhancements that create a portal for Warp. Stardrive has the option of a Stargate, which may or may not be scaled and located for use by individuals, for example being in space and/or being used for spaceships. Tunnel has already been covered, but Gate creates an interesting possibility. Gate offers the possibility that it has the enhancement Extra Carrying Capacity, Extra-Heavy which allows anyone using the Gate to bring along anything he can lift. In the case of forcing your opponent into the portal, there is a good chance that when he goes through the portal, he can bring you with him, whether you intended to come or not.

Quote:
If it is "just a finger poke and it sucks you in" then it also makes me wonder how the portal figures out where "you" stops, like in cases where we have swarms as insects considered a singular character/body.
It's dubious that where you begin or where you stop enters into it. All it needs to "recognize" is whether you're an entity that can use it or not. Given some entities that can use it, the best bet seems to be either some form of Sense Life or, possibly, Detect IQ>0. In the case of swarms, it might actually Warp each individual within the swarm separately, which would be an easy read, or it might find the readings of the individuals to be so entangled that they effectively "read" as a single individual to the portal, which probably opens a can of worms as to how big and distinguishable two lifeforms need to be to read separately.

If two roughly man-sized beings "read" as a single individual to the portal, pushing your foe into the portal might be moot. Neither of you would go anywhere until you stop grappling as your combined mass exceeds the portal's capacity to Warp. And if grappling entangles the reading, is Close Combat without grappling also close enough to interfere with Warp?

Given the potential to render Warp useless, I'm inclined to suggest that swarms Warp as the individuals within the swarm, with any amounts not Warped being sufficiently trivial to make no difference in the overall statistics of the swarm. To put it another way, if you Warp a bloodthirsty swarm of mosquitoes, you get a swarm of bloodthirsty mosquitoes at the other end. If that leaves a few bloodthirsty mosquitoes, who didn't make the trip, making a nuisance of themselves at the origin point, it's essentially playable "fluff."
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Old 06-18-2022, 12:06 PM   #14
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: should Warp w/ Tunnel be allowed the PartialChange enhancement from Insubstantial

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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
You can't "pull their hand through", though. If you reach into the portal to grasp his hand, either Warp activates and you end up at his location or, if Warp doesn't activate until you're fully within the portal, you don't Warp and aren't present to grip his hand to pull on it.

Now, if you're on the same side of the portal and are trying to force your enemy through the portal, you can, at least in theory.
That's what I was picturing but didn't think to use 'push' because I guess I was thinking of facing away from the portal and using back muscles to pull someone to+behind me (like a judo flip) to try and throw them through.

Flips land people prone (fee on one hex, head in another) so conceivably just half of you might land in a portal's hex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
It's dubious that where you begin or where you stop enters into it. All it needs to "recognize" is whether you're an entity that can use it or not. Given some entities that can use it, the best bet seems to be either some form of Sense Life or, possibly, Detect IQ>0.
Would this mean even through an open portal you could not toss objects through?

IE the 'carrying capacity' is somehow 'on your person' which is of course another one of those concepts that could have gray boundaries.
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Old 06-18-2022, 12:46 PM   #15
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: should Warp w/ Tunnel be allowed the PartialChange enhancement from Insubstantial

Personally I'm inclined to imagine it as just an open door since it very rarely just schloops up the person touching in in fiction with the exception of Stargate. The only issue arises when some dumbass just stands in the door until it closes. There are two options then, amputation or the part on the other side just reappears on the side that has most of them.
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