How to equip a TL3 knight?

[Celjabba]

I dislike buying basic gear with SigGear.

This said, a fully equipped Knight is closer to very wealthy, at least.

Don't forget also:
-debt, to pay for the wealth level. Historically accurate.
-Heir is a possibility too.

And especially:
-patron and duty.

For a "crusader knight", collecting on a favor patron at 1/5 the cost may be a good idea to raise gear, and also historically accurate.

Celjabba

[Kyle Aaron]

Originally Posted by Langy

If you find that he doesn't have enough money for what you want to give him, well, you've identified the problem and the solution all at once: he doesn't have enough money. Give him more.

Or perhaps you've identified the reason he's going on that crusade :) I mean, knock off 3-4 blokes wearing mail, maybe capture a horse or two, and you get to upgrade nicely. And from then on, what with your warhorse riding down men-at-arms and your hacking through guys in leather with spears with some impunity, well it's all spending money.

The book linked to earlier notes that Isanhard sold his inheritance for a horse and a sword. So obviously he expected to earn more by his sword than he could by his land; or else he didn't fancy being a farmer.

Originally Posted by Novembermike

TL 3 peasants weren't as poor as a lot of people think. They were generally well fed and I haven't seen a ton saying that your average Scandinavian peasant was worse off than Average wealth would suggest.

From the point of view of players wanting to create adventuring PCs, the key issue would be that the ordinary non-adventurer has only 20% of their wealth in adventuring gear. So the character of Wealth (Average) [0] has $1,000 of stuff... but could have only $200 of weapons, armour, 50ft rope, 10ft pole and the rest.

So a mercenary even of mediocre fighting skills would be feared by people of average wealth - simply because they have five times as much wealth devoted to arms and armour.

For example,

$200 buys you an axe (sw+2 cut) or spear (thr+2/3 imp), leather armour (DR2 torso/groin), leather helm (DR2 skull/face), with $30 or $40 left over for sundries

$1,000 buys you a broadsword (sw+1 cut, thr +1 imp) or fine-quality axe (sw+3 cut), mail hauberk (DR4/2 torso/groin), mail coif, leggings & sleeves (DR4/2, skull/neck, arms/legs), with $100 left over for sundries.

Even assuming everyone has ST10, the axe will do 1d6+2 cut, the spear 1d/+1 imp - but 4 of these will be lost from armour in most locations, meaning the axe cannot do more than 4HP base damage, and the spear not more than 3. The ordinary guy can't cripple a limb in one blow, and must basically batter the other guy into unconsciousness or hope for a lucky hit in the eye or something.

Whereas the adventurer is doing with their sword 1d6+1 cut or 1d-1 imp, or 2d-1 with their axe, against the DR2 in some hit locations of 2. The adventurer is quite simply more likely to inflict a major wound on the non--adventurer, knocking them down with a single blow, causing an injury it'll take weeks or months to recover from - if the victim even survives.

Now factor in that a person with all their wealth in adventuring gear will probably have greater combat skills, and...

Let's not underestimate just how nasty an adventurer with even "basic" arms and armour will seem to the typical person at TL3.

Put another way, a "knight" might just be an ordinary Joseph who's put all his wealth into adventuring gear :) A crazy ordinary Joe.

[pawsplay]

Originally Posted by Agramer

Thats why his Lord gave him land in a first place...to be able to support himself!!!

I think I remember reading once that during the Crusades, every horse on the field required the efforts of two servants to maintain. Actually breeding warhorses would require a large stock of large, hungry horses, who incidentally during peacetime are only useful for eating oats and breeding less suitable relatives that can be repurposed as spirited and difficult draft animals.

On the other hand, historically, "being a knight" need not involve more than buying or stealing a sword or spear, and acquiring a horse, perhaps by theft or as a perk of a religious vow. In general, the more people actively involved in dying, the eaiser the entrace requirements to the chivalry become. :)

[doulos05]

Originally Posted by Kyle Aaron

From the point of view of players wanting to create adventuring PCs, the key issue would be that the ordinary non-adventurer has only 20% of their wealth in adventuring gear. So the character of Wealth (Average) [0] has $1,000 of stuff... but could have only $200 of weapons, armour, 50ft rope, 10ft pole and the rest.

So a mercenary even of mediocre fighting skills would be feared by people of average wealth - simply because they have five times as much wealth devoted to arms and armour.

That's not what the book says. The book says that if you're playing a character with a good reason NOT to have any settled possessions, then you can have 100% of your starting wealth. It also states that if you choose to spend 100% of your starting wealth, if you didn't write it down, you don't have it. Meaning, you have exactly how many clothes you write down. You have exactly how many cigarette lighters you write down. Etc, etc. Your wandering mercenary can spend 100% of his starting wealth as you detailed, but those sundries better include every article of clothing he's going to wear, the tent he's gonna sleep in, the pot he's gonna cook in, the sewing kit he's gonna use to maintain his tent and clothing, the wineskin he's gonna drink from, the food he's gonna eat, etc, etc. That piles up really, really quickly. The 80% is shorthand for, "Yes, and he has all the basic necessities of life."

[Gudiomen]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

A barrel helm is plate, not segmented, and most knights wear mail, not scale.

True plate is only available at TL4, treat TL3 plate as segmented plate. And most helms were composed of several pieces of metal, rather than a single one.

And yeah, most knights wear mail, but most knights have more money. I was purposely bulding "on a budget" for the cheapest thing that could pass as a knight. The "typical" knight is both better equipped... and richer.

Like others have said, wealth discrepancy in western medieval lands was great. You'll have a hard time making a crusader knight on that sort of budget without buying some as signature gear, or trading points for cash.

Treatment of wealth on Basic reflects a more gradual social distribution than was realistic in the medieval period. I'm not saying that there weren't any Rich knights, it's just that they're not your typical mail clad, longsword-swinging, warhorse riding knight. You're talking elite military equipment of the time here, the best gear there was.

[The Colonel]

Certainly the tradition seems to be that Norman second sons (and such) ... the sort of men that went to fight in Southern Italy and Sicily around the turn of the first millenium (TL2-3?) went with little more than their armour (mailcoat, helmet and shield), lance, sword and three horses (destrier, riding horse and pack horse) - still a lot in GURPS$, but also the sum total of their patrimony and pretty much all that they owned.
It seems a lot of that gear was traditionally given to the young man when he was knighted - feudal landowners were entitled to raise additional taxes for the knighting of their sons and the marriage of their daughters (Called "reliefs"). Whether this is just backstory, points-for-cash or signature gear I don't know.
It was the whole tradition of the eldest inheriting everything and the other sons being sent out with little more than their wargear that made sure that Normans ended up all over Europe.
Of course, once the knight ended up as someone's bannerman, his Patron was usually expected to equip and maintain him ... but we already have an advantage for that ... and if he was enfeifed, well, that seems to have been the point of feudalism: fighting men granted land to support their expenses in return for service at arms.

[B9anders]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

A fine mail suit, assuming it covers legs, arms and torso, $2250
The warhorse $4k
Riding Equipment about $240
the lance $60
Total=7,3k

Starting money for a rich person at TL3=$5k

So, how do you do with the 2,3k that the knight doesn't have?
Even if he trades the bastard sword for a cheap broadsword($240), the fine mail suit for a cheap heavy mail suit($1200) he still would have to spend 5,8k.

I am using Basic Set for armor here, but my costs come out at $1065 for mail sleeves, leggins and hauberk.

But yeah, you probably need to spend an additional 3=5 points in gear beyond this, or buy your horse as an ally, to equip him.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by B9anders

I am using Basic Set for armor here, but my costs come out at $1065 for mail sleeves, leggins and hauberk.

But yeah, you probably need to spend an additional 3=5 points in gear beyond this, or buy your horse as an ally, to equip him.

A problem I have run into with normal animals as Allies in realistic campaigns is that point-value growth soon exceeds the believable potential of the animal.

[Celjabba]

Horses as allies or a bundle of armor as signature gear are possible, of course, but they make little sense for a mundane knight in my opinion.

In a realistic modern day game, would you advise ally for a lawyer ferrari ?
Or signature gear for a rich doctor private clinic gear ?
Instead of giving them the wealth/debt/patron they require ?

In a fantasy/cinematic game, of course, it is totally different.

Celjabba

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

Horses as allies or a bundle of armor as signature gear are possible, of course, but they make little sense for a mundane knight in my opinion.

In a realistic modern day game, would you advise ally for a lawyer ferrari ?
Or signature gear for a rich doctor private clinic gear ?
Instead of giving them the wealth/debt/patron they require ?

In a fantasy/cinematic game, of course, it is totally different.

Celjabba

Assuming you spend 80% of your starting wealth on status stuff...this should be less of an issue.

In a realistic modern day game, the ferrari would be part of the starting package for Status listed on B266 assuming the lawyer is Status 1 or 2.

Similarly, Banestorm pg. 187 mentions what cost of living gets you for Status...and a Status 2 person has a couple of warhorses. You'd still have to buy armor and a weapon...but the weapon could easily be Sig Gear (i.e. given to you from your father).