Imperfections: Human 'dissonance'

[Acolyte]

I like your backwards Impudites. Some might even see themselves as glorious benefactors.

As for everything else: that's reliever/demonling work. Sure, a full celestial can waste their time doing that stuff, but they can't use their full abilities without blowing their cover!
Worse, from Heaven's perspective, most of it strengthens The Media, as it is all about humans being passive recievers of the Celestial message.

Now, PCs have a choice - waste their time doing stuff that any 7 Force underling can do, or permanently remove their opposing numbers. Every enemy they dispose of costs the other side millennia of work; every enemy subverted additionally gains millennia of work. Whether it means hitting a demon with EthAttraction and then CorpProjection into Notre Dame for a soul kill, or whacking an angel with enough Dissonance and Discord for a Fall, the real work doesn't involve humans at all.

You think that 9-Force celestials shouldn't be promoting their Superiors' Words day in and day out because that is a "waste" of "their time", instead focusing on the only "real work" of subverting or killing opposing celestials?

That, to me, rips out most of the great fun of IN, playing an otherworldly being enacting a mostly hidden agenda while looking at the foibles of humanity from an external perspective. Actual combat between opposing forces, epic dramatic fights with lots of Song and Essence use, do happen, but for most celestials that's not a daily or even monthly occurrence in my perception of IN. The IN rules aren't particularly set up for sensible fighting, either, emphasizing melee weapons over guns, lacking any sense of tactical movement, and not tying degree of success (CD) to skill.

Again I ask, why create new disadvantages for humans? You've made it clear that celestials interacting with humans isn't for PCs in your perception, since they should be squaring off against their opposite numbers, so why add more rules-weight with the goal of encouraging interaction with humans? The "real work" of celestials is fighting each other, not luring humans into Heaven or Hell, as you say, after all.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by Acolyte

You think that 9-Force celestials shouldn't be promoting their Superiors' Words day in and day out because that is a "waste" of "their time", instead focusing on the only "real work" of subverting or killing opposing celestials?

That, to me, rips out most of the great fun of IN, playing an otherworldly being enacting a mostly hidden agenda while looking at the foibles of humanity from an external perspective.

I have to agree with Acolyte here. And even in a strictly military sense, promoting your Superior's Word and undermining the Words of the opposition not only advances the overall victory of Heaven or Hell, it also has an immediate tactical boost: if your Superiors have more power available than the enemy, they can get more or better boots on the ground! Get enough of an edge, and you can promote the Word and pursue an active "kill or convert" strategy simultaneously, to accelerate the opponent's decline ...

[Whitelaughter]

Originally Posted by Acolyte

I like your backwards Impudites. Some might even see themselves as glorious benefactors.

Thank you!

Originally Posted by Acolyte

You think that 9-Force celestials shouldn't be promoting their Superiors' Words day in and day out because that is a "waste" of "their time", instead focusing on the only "real work" of subverting or killing opposing celestials?

That's right.

Originally Posted by Acolyte

That, to me, rips out most of the great fun of IN, playing an otherworldly being enacting a mostly hidden agenda while looking at the foibles of humanity from an external perspective. Actual combat between opposing forces, epic dramatic fights with lots of Song and Essence use, do happen, but for most celestials that's not a daily or even monthly occurrence in my perception of IN. The IN rules aren't particularly set up for sensible fighting, either, emphasizing melee weapons over guns, lacking any sense of tactical movement, and not tying degree of success (CD) to skill.

Sadly this is true; especially regarding combat. The problems with combat are largely self-correcting as experienced players use teamwork and Song/Attunement selection to good effect, creating tactical situations - although in turn this means that physical combat tends to go out the window.

More importantly, it means that PCs need a focus on goals that are worth putting (Forces=90, Choir/Band Attunement=5, Rites~9, everything else=36) about 140 cp worth of their Superior's resources into. Perversely this is easiest for the Superiors who haven't been written up: A Trader creating new markets, a Jeanite overhauling a city's electricity supply...although a Trog connecting communities by building roads is also do able.

Originally Posted by Acolyte

Again I ask, why create new disadvantages for humans? You've made it clear that celestials interacting with humans isn't for PCs in your perception, since they should be squaring off against their opposite numbers, so why add more rules-weight with the goal of encouraging interaction with humans? The "real work" of celestials is fighting each other, not luring humans into Heaven or Hell, as you say, after all.

Because 'humans as scenery' is neither ideal nor the original intent of IN. I'm looking for solutions.
Now the most fun I've ever had with a human NPC was a Sorcerer with triple digits of Disadvantages: powerful for a human, but miserable and insane. Both angels and demons had something to offer him - and the angels eventually won out: because they could offer him the Light of Heaven, the knowledge that all his Disads would be stripped if he made it to Heaven. (The Destiny of 'refuse demons to point of death' made this easier for him, of course). My idea with Imperfections was to recreate this on a smaller scale so that it could add a bit of depth to other plots.

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by Whitelaughter

PCs shouldn't - players should. GMs should. Wars are fought over territory, riches, slaves: possessions.

Most wars, yes, but don't forget that In Nomine was created at the end of the Cold War. This particular War is a war of ideas and ideals and propaganda, not swords and bombs; it's a war for the hearts of men and women. There's very little actual physical combat going on.

[Archangel Beth]

At the very least, humans provide plots.
• "Somebody died oddly. Go find out why." (The Rats' Revenge.)
• "Look at all those humans who need influencing! Let's get to it!" (A Very Nybbas Christmas
• "Oh, look, disturbance and Weird Stuff!" (The Sorcerer's Impediments)
• "Oh, look, Weird Stuff and a mass murderer!" (Feast of Blades
• "Oh, look, a Balseraph appears to be in love with a human!" (Cupid's Arrows)
• "Oh, look, HOSTS!" (Demon Seeds)

Are the humans major players in all these? Not all of them. Sometimes they're just an excuse to do "okay, go check out X." But in a longer-running campaign, having distinctive human hangers-on makes it more likely that the PCs will plausibly go, "Oh, Lee is acting funny; we should find out what's wrong." Plus you can get them investigating things that might or might not be Enemy Celestial Action; if they aren't, the celestials have to make sure their cover isn't blown. If it is ECA, then the celestials have to handle it... and still not blow their covers!

Making humans more powerful, mechanics-wise, is generally more elegantly done in GURPS In Nomine, in my experience, though.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

Making humans more powerful, mechanics-wise, is generally more elegantly done in GURPS In Nomine, in my experience, though.

Naturally, because GURPS starts with the human experience as standard and then builds to the supernatural, rather than starting with the Holy And Profane as standard and then descending to the merely mortal. Champions/Hero has a similar issue: built for comic-book superheroes, it has difficulty when used for a more realistic world.

EDIT: That's not meant as a criticism of IN, by the way. I enjoy the game a great deal. But as written, it clearly does have celestial PCs in mind, and does require some work to put humans on the same playing field.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by robkelk

Most wars, yes, but don't forget that In Nomine was created at the end of the Cold War. This particular War is a war of ideas and ideals and propaganda, not swords and bombs; it's a war for the hearts of men and women. There's very little actual physical combat going on.

Quoted for truth. As has been noted before, the setting is essentially a Cold War with halos and horns.

("Halos & Horns" -- hmmm, that has kind of a retro feel to it.)

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

At the very least, humans provide plots.
• "Somebody died oddly. Go find out why." (The Rats' Revenge.)
• "Look at all those humans who need influencing! Let's get to it!" (A Very Nybbas Christmas
• "Oh, look, disturbance and Weird Stuff!" (The Sorcerer's Impediments)
• "Oh, look, Weird Stuff and a mass murderer!" (Feast of Blades
• "Oh, look, a Balseraph appears to be in love with a human!" (Cupid's Arrows)
• "Oh, look, HOSTS!" (Demon Seeds)

Good point. I was considering starting a separate thread just to poll folks on how we do integrate human NPCs into campaigns, but this is a pretty good summary on its own.

Personally, I like human NPCs who actually stick around for multiple sessions because they contrast well with celestials in their flexibility, which I think gets my players reflecting more about the nature of their own PCs. In one game I ran, for instance, two of the humans seemed introduced basically as props, just to populate their occult-shop headquarters with an exasperated sales clerk and a goofy shopper. When the PCs ended up stretched too thin, though, they ended up relying on these humans to take care of them -- watching over their bodies while they wandered the Marches, delivering important messages to places the PCs would be recognized, and even going endangering themselves by going undercover. One character who was introduced as comic relief (and would've had a "Naive" Imperfection if I were using such rules) ended up becoming quite beloved by the players when he proved he could come through when they needed him most. I don't think even I would've given him a chance, but the players did, which got me to think about how to make him less two-dimensional. And this leads players, I think, to question how deep their own characters are, given that those are basically built on archetypes, stereotypes, and dissonance conditions to begin with...

In other words: humans are indeed useless if you're playing In Nomine as if it were D&D, but they can totally make the game if you're focusing on plot and character development over the more literal battles on the front lines of the War.

[Acolyte]

Most wars, yes, but don't forget that In Nomine was created at the end of the Cold War. This particular War is a war of ideas and ideals and propaganda, not swords and bombs; it's a war for the hearts of men and women.

You know, I swore I mentioned the Cold War somewhere above in this thread, but apparently I didn't. Chalk it up to dreaming about the interesting discussions on the forum. *grin*

In other words, I agree with this.

Making humans more powerful, mechanics-wise, is generally more elegantly done in GURPS In Nomine, in my experience, though.

I don't really see this as a point in favor of GIN, because while humans are important, they should be less capable in most situation than immortal, semi-divine (or profane) beings.

In other words: humans are indeed useless if you're playing In Nomine as if it were D&D, but they can totally make the game if you're focusing on plot and character development over the more literal battles on the front lines of the War.

This is the sort of thing I'm talking about--in a game that isn't all about ambushing squads of Calabim or killing off a Cherub's attuned (and I honestly think IN isn't as fun played that way), humans have great relevance, flexibility, and importance. A session might hinge on whether or not the Deputy Commissioner votes for a new homeless shelter or leases the building to a burgeoning porn studio--assuming neither of competing teams has a Kyrio/Shedite or the Song of Possession, which isn't a stretch of an assumption at all--there can be a lot of behind-the-scenes maneuvering that doesn't explode into celestial violence, because no one wants to disturb new Tethers forming in the area.

[Whitelaughter]

Originally Posted by robkelk

There's very little actual physical combat going on.

Korea, Vietnam, Israel, Afghanistan, Indonesia, Operation Condor, Somalia...

Mind you, your initial point is valid. IN is a cold war - rather than nukes, you've got Superiors, and if multiple Superiors end up brawling the planet goes away. So combat has to be rapid and mobile, and making sure your target can't call in help is more important than the damage you can do.