10-15-2024, 03:49 AM | #21 | ||||
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Re: Federal LEO or Other Jobs for Unfazeable Killer in 1953
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It's a bit of a stretch, but if you assume that he got into an Ivy League or "Near Ivy" on recommendations of colleagues and superiors, as well as his record as a war hero, it might just be possible that he found himself in a fraternity, or equivalent, with people who could teach him how to tie a bow tie and which fork to use for each course at dinner. Something else to consider is that elite universities choose their students based on their perceived potential success after they graduate. A good-looking war hero with excellent leadership skills might just be a future CEO or senator, even if he's likely to represent a state that no respectable New England WASP would want to live in. Quote:
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Alternately, he might be chosen as part of a high-level security detail which deals with potential security breaches and other problems which have to be hushed up quickly. In that case, he'd be a 1950s era "man in black." Given his personality and background, it wouldn't be unreasonable to riff off of Tommy Lee Jones' character in the "Men in Black" movie. |
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10-15-2024, 01:21 PM | #22 |
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Re: Federal LEO or Other Jobs for Unfazeable Killer in 1953
A good book on the USMS is U.S. Marshals by Mike Earp and David Fisher. Well worth the read.
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10-15-2024, 01:59 PM | #23 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Kentucky
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Re: Federal LEO or Other Jobs for Unfazeable Killer in 1953
You might look at the Federal Bureau of Narcotics which was a predecessor to the Drug Enforcement Administration and in existence from 1930 to 1968. It was a pretty wild agency in those days, google "Harry J. Anslinger", its director for most of that period of time, and "George Hunter White" one of its most notorious agents.
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10-15-2024, 10:31 PM | #24 | ||||||
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: Federal LEO or Other Jobs for Unfazeable Killer in 1953
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Tony doesn't, at the moment, have a commission in the Regular Army or even the Army Reserves. He has a commission only valid while the Korean War is going on and, really, only while he's at the front. It's not impossible that he will be granted a Reserve commission, or even a Regular Army commission (if he were, for example, to win the Medal of Honor), but it's significantly less likely than his initial battlefield promotion was. Basically, it only happens if someone senior to him and with a lot of influence in Army circles, wants him for something after the Korean War and needs him to be an officer while he does it. Quote:
I just don't know what he had been doing before that happened or what, if anything, he gave up to move back home to New Mexico and eventually take over his father's business. Quote:
First of all, I'll see if the Army (or specific officers more senior than he within the Army) want to utilize him in any way once his service in Korea ends. I'm going through several sources for a) What the process for selecting early Special Forces officers was and if proven combat ability could overcome lack of GURPS Attributues to learn everything quickly, and b) If any officers involved in setting up Special Forces served in similar locations in Korea as Tony was. Then I'll check for the CIA and other clandestine activities going on at the time. At the time, people didn't know that the CIA would end up lasting or becoming the most important US intelligence service when it came to actual foreign operations, so the military agencies that felt that the CIA was unnecessary or that they ought to have a role in covert operations might try to tap him for some of their attempts to carve out a role in the new Cold War world. Then go through other potential federal agencies and also keep an eye out for any Reserve officers who might have served with Tony in Korea, but then gone back to a civilian life where they could use a good bad man, for whatever reason. Basically, I know when he marries Vicki Hanson, from Albuquerque, NM, and friend of his younger sister. That's in April 1957. He married her because she was pregnant, with their first child, a son, Travis Manzano, who was conceived around Halloween, 1956. So, Tony must have been home to see his family, either on leave, vacation or just out of the Army / federal service, whatever ends up happening. I started to try to figure out this background when I knew, from the age, that the father Travis and Arliss Manzano had been in the military during Korea, because of conscription. I rolled some dice to see if he'd have served in Germany or a US base while the war was going on, found out he served in a combat unit in Korea. Then I rolled for how much combat he saw, etc. By now curious, because the dice indicated that he'd survived some of the worst fighting, I rolled for how good his resistance to Fright Checks was, intending to estimate how much the war might have affected him and what that meant for the childhood of Travis, Connie, Gina and Arliss. When I discovered that their father was Unfazeable, I figured that this might have been noticed by Army authorities. I rolled critical successes for both his immediate superiors and more senior command, so his performance at the Pusan perimeter and the Yalu earned him commendations, decorations and a battlefield promotion (especially as his battalion lost every officer but one, so there were a lot of slots to fill). And now I decided that I'd fill out the story of Tony Manzano a bit more and figure out who he was, maybe what he could have been, and what decision he eventually made that led to him spending the last years of his life taking over his father's gunsmith business, once Giancarlo died. So, I know the end of the story. I just don't know what happens between January 1951, in Korea, and October 1956, in New Mexico. And, technically, though I know his children grew up in their grandfather's house in Pueblo Isleta, and I assumed that he'd lived them with them and their mother there from 1956, it's entirely possible that he actually had some kind of job where he travelled and only came home occasionally, at least for the first few years. So, a career in Special Forces, the CIA or other federal service, and/or maybe state police, investigator for a prosecutor or just police officer, is not ruled out, I just know that whatever he did after Korea, by 1976, he took over Manzano Gunsmithing. Quote:
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10-16-2024, 10:15 PM | #25 |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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US Army Special Warfare
The 10th Special Forces Group was, in fact, established in 1952, under the Psychological Warfare Center, which later became the U.S. Army John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School (SWCS).
And buried in the history of US Army Engineering Corps in Korea I am reading, I just discovered that the man who took over the decimated 2nd Infantry Division, including Tony Manzano's 2d Engineer Combat Battalion, just after his battlefield promotion, and, therefore, in fact, the general officer who signed off on it, was Major General Robert A. McClure. As in, 'the father of Army Special Warfare' Bob McClure, the driving force behind the creation of the Psychological Warfare Center and developing an unconventional warfare capability in the US Army. That suggests that Tony will at least get a chance to try out.
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10-17-2024, 03:43 AM | #26 | |
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Re: US Army Special Warfare
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Tony, out of Cold War patriotism or Depression-Era thriftiness, remains in the NM National Guard after he's demobilized. Most WW2 and Korean War vets couldn't get away from the military fast enough, but there were some who continued to serve in the reserves or NG, sometimes even into the Vietnam era. I couldn't see Tony as an officer as described, with or without a degree, but I could see him as an increasingly crusty top sergeant, possibly in Ordnance rather than just combat engineers. None of the above is inconsistent with him having a civilian career doing something spooky for the military. |
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10-17-2024, 10:26 PM | #27 | ||||
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: US Army Special Warfare
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I'm still working through sources trying to find something readable on Kindle on how the officers were selected for the first couple of years. I know that many went through the SFQC, but there's a chance that some were appointed directly from combat units in Korea, and/or went for other training, like the Engineer Officer Advanced Course, and then were appointed to the 10th SFG (A). Tony would have a really tough time with SFQC, on pretty much every level except the shooting, leadership and tactical aspects. His HT is not high enough to make it through all the physical, athletic parts, compared to the kind of athletes who were among the few hundred selected out of five thousand applicants, unless he drags himself through on pure grit and stubborn willpower. Orienteering has also been one of the biggest failure points in SOF training and selection, along with swimming, and Tony is pretty much average at Navigation for a military officer, and Special Forces officers are meant to be super good at it, and as for Swimming, he flat-out doesn't know how. I'll roll for it once I find a source for how the first few SFQC differ from the ones in the 1960s to the modern ones. And I imagine that he'd be discreetly sent for swimming courses before the SFQC if Col. Aaron Bank really wanted him, for example, because Bank saw him or heard about him while he was an XO in the 187th Airborne RCT while they fought beside the 2nd Infantry Division (including Tony's D Company, 2d Engineer Combat Battalion) in 1951. Still have to roll for their potential meeting or hearing about each other. Quote:
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Even then, there's a lot more enlisted slots in the new Special Forces than there are officer ones. Like 30% of the enlisted guys in the first 10th SFG had Reserve officer commissions from WWII or the Korean War, but went back to NCO status to serve on ODAs. Quote:
Attributes more or less like a normal person, except high Will and Unfazeable, are less conductive to Rangers or Special Forces than they are being a noir detective, one of Elliot Ness' 'Untouchables' or the 1950s version thereof. Most people can be intimidated, threatened or discouraged by someone powerful enough. A Reserve officer going into politics, back to a police chief job or an elected prosecutor office, could think to himself, 'If I'm ever going to break the stranglehold these crooks have on this town, I'm going to need someone who doesn't scare, doesn't have a lot of worldly experience, but can go from courteous to calmly killing someone in a second.' There's a few rumours about cities like Hot Springs, Arkansas, Galveston, TX, and Las Vegas, NV, of course, as well as a few other Southern and Western towns where the local law had been bought and paid for for a long time and rival politicians, either on the state or municipal level appointed some veterans as officers or investigators, or in earlier decades, hired them as private detectives. Those Dashiell Hammett stories that became samurai movies that became Westerns were allegedly based on some true stories.
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10-20-2024, 07:44 PM | #28 | |
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Re: US Army Special Warfare
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As another possibility, Tony becomes a senior NCO or junior officer on McClure's Staff and is involved in setting up SF, curriculum design and initial candidate selection. He's certainly know good special operators when he saw them. Clearly he's only going to be SF/associated with SF for a few years before he goes back to NM, however. As for his health, etc. he might have been potentially much healthier at certain times in his life. 3 years in semi-static, highly stressful combat in Korea, smoking cigarettes and living on C-Rations is going to wear down HT. Back in the States, a better diet, getting rid of the smokes and dealing with minor underlying health issues might be good enough to just get him over the bar physically for SF selection. As for map reading, don't worry about it. Tony's got plenty of real-world experience as well as practical Land Nav experience from living in NM and being out in the desert. With an actual formal land nav course and a bit of Luck, he could learn to get very good at map reading and navigation. The same goes for swimming. The big killer for inexperienced swimmers is Fear, which Tony doesn't suffer from. If he needs to learn to swim, he learns to swim even if it's on his own dime at the YMCA. With a good, hard swimming program, he gains Fit or Very Fit and sufficient HT that he's SF material. Given an order from an officer he highly respects that, "You have 1 year to pass the courses you're helping to design or you're out," he'll probably get the job done. The idea of remaining in the NM NG or Reserves is backstory for why he remains relatively close to his original stats even as a civilian. He'd also be the sort of NCO/officer that any guard unit would want. Great for training, recruiting and unit efficiency. If he got the Medal of Honor, he'd always be welcome to show up at any unit even as a civilian. If he got the sort of medals that only soldiers care about (e.g., DSC with 2 oak leaves) he'd still be welcome in the right units. As a final thought regarding medals, consider that a poor Italian kid from an Indian reservation might run up against a racist commander who refused to recommend him for the highest decorations on the assumption that he was a "half breed" or "Indian." He'd be the sort of MoH recipient who only gets their medal sometime in the 1980s or 1990s once the political culture of the military begins to change. There's also the fact that his finest moments might have come while his unit was being pushed by hard by the Chinese, so records go missing and witnesses die or get injured and transferred away from the unit. As more records come to light after the war (especially after the end of the Cold War), his medals might get upgraded. Last edited by Pursuivant; 10-20-2024 at 08:27 PM. |
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10-21-2024, 11:03 AM | #29 | |||||
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: US Army Special Warfare
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In any case, I think the battlefield promotion Tony got in December 1950 might mean he remains in Korea until June 1952. Officers needed to amass more points than enlisted men to be rotated home, and I think that points amassed as an enlisted man might not count on Tony's new personnel jacket as an officer of the Army of the United States. From September 1951, the individual rotation of soldiers in Korea went by a point system where they were supposed to rotate home every few years of garrison duty, but only about a year, if they were subjected to a lot of combat. Before that, I don't think soldiers from deployed units rotated home at all, not unless they had orders for another unit or something. But the point system was weird in that belonging to an infantry unit got you more points than belonging to a combat engineer unit, regardless of whether you actually were in combat. Then there was the issue of being stationed in Japan also meant you were 'in theatre', so replacements from Japan sent to the 2d Engineer Combat Battalion in December were actually due home as soon as the point system went into effect, which might make them rotate home before the original men or officers from the 2e ECB, because the garrison duty for a few years in Japan counted for so many points, while the 2d ECB had only amassed points from July 1950 and only at the reduced rate 'combat support' units got, so they'd have to stay for about 50-100% longer than infantry units. In any case, I think that in accepting a commission, Tony would have started a new count as an officer and his months in combat as an enlisted man no longer mattered, he'd need 55 points from December 1950, which at the combat support rate would be eighteen months from the date of his commission. There is a possibility that he could fight that and get home early, but I don't think he would, not while any of his men were still in theatre. I'll try to find another source on the point system, see if he might be rotated home regardless of what he wants. Some soldiers and officers were, both because of concerns they might develop 'combat fatigue' if left longer at the front, but also because some of the experienced men were needed at home as instructors. There's also the chance that a Silver Star, a Bronze Star with V device and at least one oak leaf cluster, plus a Purple Heart or two, put his point value over the required 55 earlier. They would have all been awarded for actions taken in 1950, while an NCO, but any award requiring approval at above divisional level would not actually have gotten through the system until January 1951 (and probably much later), because all paperwork for the 2nd Infantry Division was lost in the retreat from Kunu-Ri at the start of December 1950 (sounds made up, but is totally true). The whole division was designated 'combat ineffective' as a result. So, while the Maj. Gen. Bob McClure, who is a different one from from the Maj. Gen. Bob McClure in command of Tony Manzano's 2nd Infantry Division, is chief of Psychological Warfare for the Army, is in charge of setting up Special Warfare and eventually the 10th SFG, 2LT Tony Manzano would still be fighting in Korea. Where he might run into Col. Aaron Bank (then probably a LTC Bank, if not just a Major Bank). If Tony didn't rotate back home to CONUS until June 1952, that would be after the 10th SFG is set up, and he'd have to go through the early version of Special Forces Qualification Course, either as an officer or NCO, depending on whether influence was brought to bear to transfer his commission to the Reserve (a commission in the Regular Army would be too implausible without an actual Medal of Honor [which he wouldn't get even if he deserved one], men in his position only got a Reserve commission at best, even if they served on active duty for a whole career). Quote:
It's fairly plausible that both Tony and Matteo were suffering from diabetes in Korea and had not been aware that they had it before, because they were unable to eat enough sugar or unhealthy food while growing up during the Depression, while in the Army, they had infinite access to ice cream, soda pops and candy, as well as the cigarettes most men chain-smoked in the trenches of Korea, just men did before them in WWI trenches. Quote:
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Even in the modern era, few people who didn't grow up swimming as kids make it into any SOF units. It's often cited as the reason for the overwhelming Caucasian majority in SOF units compared to the rest of the military. Swimming instruction before they make you take swimming tests has not been something the military has excelled at for SOF selection, they've mostly been assuming recruits come to them already knowing all that stuff. Quote:
I think Tony might have escaped anti-Native American prejudice, though, because his Italian-American origin explains the name and he doesn't look all that 'Indian'. He just looks like most Italian-Americans, in terms of complexion, and his eyes are grey, not brown, because his father comes from Northern Italy and his mother is part-Hispanic, part-Anglo and part Tiwa/Tanoan, from the pueblo of Isleta. So, as far as the Army knows, he's an Italian-American from Albuquerque, NM.
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Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela! Last edited by Icelander; 10-21-2024 at 10:17 PM. |
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10-25-2024, 06:30 PM | #30 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: MO, U.S.A.
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Re: Federal LEO or Other Jobs for Unfazeable Killer in 1953
A thought, you mentioned some individuals being rotated home to training units, could Tony be noticed as a trainer, and used for training SF forces?
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1950s, cia, federal agencies, special agents, special ops |
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