High Power GURPS: Where lies the problem?

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by Hopkins Vioreo

Whenever I search for GURPS limitations, one key aspect keeps popping up: GURPS doesn't do High Power campaigns very well. I would like to know, from those who already attempted it:
1- Is it true?
2- If so, what exactly "breaks" within the system?
3- Are there any tips to ameliorate the problem?

The only answer I can give for that is "depends". As a lot of other posters have commented, "breaks" can mean a few different htings, when I hear someone claim "X system breaks when Y" I usually ask the complainer "What do mean it 'breaks'?"

Frex, I know GURPS GMs who think "the system breaks" if PCs have more than 100 exp, or if you start with more than 25 cp to start, or if the PC's Attributes are above 10.

All of which I consider pure bunk, but it's a subjective thing. So 'breaks' for one can be 'pure joy" for another.

Now, back in 3e, specifically with Supers, what I usually heard "breaks" it meant "the realism settings run counter to a 4-colour supers genre". Which is true. So you have to adjust the settings.

Originally Posted by Anthony

Usually, "doesn't do high power well" actually means, "doesn't do the particular high power genre I want to do well without a lot of effort that I'm unwilling to put into it".

This too. GURPS isn't an 'out of the box' game for any genre that isn't 'generically realisticl modern/historic/low fantasy". And until 4e, "adjust the settings", especially in the wake of D&D 3e's "just fire the DM and run using the RAW" era, simply wasn't a thing new (or even old experienced) Players really understood.

Originally Posted by Polydamas

To steelman this trope, GURPS is built to create scenes which resemble realist fiction.

For GURPS Basic Set, this is true. But even GURPS Supers in 3e had a lot of setting switches to bring the system tools into a more 4-colour genre flavour.

There are some technical issues with how ST and muscle-powered damage scale in terms of point cost.

So adjust the cost. It's toolbox not a straight jacket.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

This too. GURPS isn't an 'out of the box' game for any genre that isn't 'generically realisticl modern/historic/low fantasy".

Requiring extensive customization is a legitimate complaint if a game claims to support something; it's a drawback of calling a system 'generic universal'.

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

1-Omnicompetence. With enough points in skills and high attributes characters can seem too good at too many different things. This problem appears even at moderately high point totals around IQ in particular. Usual solutions involve "point buckets" and skill caps. More radical solutions involve raising the cost of IQ, or having incrementally higher costs for everything at higher levels.

I've gone back and forth on this issue and what I've found works is Buckets o' Points (Templates work better actually) plus deflating the Default Maximum. Attribute maximum for defaulting skills is arbitrarily 20, so why not just make it 14? I did, it works.

2-Cost/value of ST.

I change the cost of ST. The more you want to buy, the less it costs. I'm still working this out, clearly it's not a "one size fits all" solution like Bucket o' Points (which is still a "so how many points do you want in each bucket" problem, but).

3-Scale-to-scope issues. Upper limits of physics that the GM doesn't want tested or overthrown can be attained with high point totals. For example, a specific level of Area Effect can encompass the entire known universe.

This irequires the GM to 'do some work' and set limits.

4-Technology. Making characters who can match the feats of existing and plausibly predictable technology can be challenging balance problems. For example, emulating gun damage is expensive, but since no mind control technology exists powers that provide it can seem very cheap for their benefits.

The often bandied about solution of "make it cost whatever points it would require to buy it as Points for Money + X cp UBE" isn't a bad solution.

5-Survivability. At high point levels, many abilities make the normal human levels of hit points trivial in comparison to the dangers imposed.

That's... if the GM is involved in chargen and character upgrading, this should never be an issue. Unless GM us just "sleeping on it" and the Players are buying whatever they want. I mean, sure "party balance" can be hard* for campaigns with disparate PC abilities and constant PC physical danger, but that's a GMs job.

* I dunno know, I've always found it easy, but I'm not troubled by steamrolling PCs who aren't 'tough enough' or targeting specifically 'munchkinned' PCs with 'hard mode' enemies that basically just go after them. But I always make it clear in Sesh Zero what teh campaign expectations are and if a Player wants to optimize certain hazards out of their PC's life I'm either "okay, who cares" or "get wrecked by the NPC who has heard about the tough guy", depends on what they're trying to optimize out.

I my opinion much of the foregoing discussion is not so much a problem of GURPS not handling high power, but GURPS not handling hogh power in line with certain genre expectations or common plot/script evasions that a writer can use that a GM cannot.

I don't know what you mean by "a writer can use that a GM cannot". As GM when I design my game (and talk it over the Players) I (we) decide what the genre conventions are.

If we prefer a "Marvel Universe" to a "The Boys Universe"... well, that's on us. We set those sliders.

If you mean, "the characters also have their own writers so the GM just can't willy-nilly things", well yes. But I think that's a different issue.

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Requiring extensive customization is a legitimate complaint if a game claims to support something; it's a drawback of calling a system 'generic universal'.

Well... sure.

I think it's a mindset thing. When I started playing rpgs back in the early 80s, I was not wed to the Rules As Written. Even in the before times, we house ruled things, we changed things to suit our fancies. We adjusted the sliders with some heavy hands.

So I've never understood this idea people have of "but the rules don't allow for us to do X, Y, or Z thing that we want". I've just never been able to emotionally connect with that. Intellectually? Yeah, okay, clearly the position exists, there are people complaining about it! I've just never grokked it so I can't argue with it properly.


My instinctive "adjust it to fit me" attitude is probably why I've loved GURPS since I met it*. Also why I really liked Big Eyes, Small Mouth as a generic system (I forget which edition rebranded itself as a generic universal simple system) and FATE, they just don't have the fidelity I crave (and I've never actually been able to get a crew together to play FATE, so I'm still hazy on how some things work in actual play).


* The GURPS campaign I ever ran I completely built a new magic system for it since I disliked the Basic Set's Skill as Spells magic system. I still like my system better than Skills as Spells, but it's basically White Wolf's Mage The Ascension magic system ... I didn't even filed the serial numbers off.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

Well... sure.

I think it's a mindset thing. When I started playing rpgs back in the early 80s, I was not wed to the Rules As Written. Even in the before times, we house ruled things, we changed things to suit our fancies. We adjusted the sliders with some heavy hands.

So I've never understood this idea people have of "but the rules don't allow for us to do X, Y, or Z thing that we want". I've just never been able to emotionally connect with that. Intellectually? Yeah, okay, clearly the position exists, there are people complaining about it! I've just never grokked it so I can't argue with it properly.


My instinctive "adjust it to fit me" attitude is probably why I've loved GURPS since I met it*. Also why I really liked Big Eyes, Small Mouth as a generic system (I forget which edition rebranded itself as a generic universal simple system) and FATE, they just don't have the fidelity I crave (and I've never actually been able to get a crew together to play FATE, so I'm still hazy on how some things work in actual play).


* The GURPS campaign I ever ran I completely built a new magic system for it since I disliked the Basic Set's Skill as Spells magic system. I still like my system better than Skills as Spells, but it's basically White Wolf's Mage The Ascension magic system ... I didn't even filed the serial numbers off.

What do you get out of having a printed system, if not the ability to use it as written? Anything you have to make up yourself seems like a place where the RAW is worse than a blank page.

[rkbrown419]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

The are challenges to be aware of. To summarize comments above and add a couple:

1-Omnicompetence.
2-Cost/value of ST.
3-Scale-to-scope issues.
4-Technology.
5-Survivability.

Most of these are literally examples of what I was saying. All are issues that have rules options to address them but people either aren't familiar enough to use the fix of just don't like it.

1. Niche protection. Supers straight up says to use this rather than points to balance supers games. It requires the GM and players to be involved in the creation of each others characters. If you do this you can make sure that characters have the skills and abilities that will be needed in your game without having them at too high a level for your game and gives each character the chance to shine.

2. GURPS has given two ways to solve this. Supers Provides the Super ST enhancement that can allow PCs to do a lot of damage and toss around really heavy things for much more reasonable point totals. Power Ups 9 suggests dropping the cost of ST at higher Tech Levels as weapons depend less on ST. Of course if you're building to concept rather than to point totals it doesn't matter how many points it costs. If you're building to concept all you need to worry about does the character have enough ST to toss around cars, tanks or battleships not the points.

3. These are best handled by GM involvement in character creation and giving players a good expectation of what kind of game is being planned. Just because the rules say you can do a thing doesn't not mean it should be allowed in every game. The GM must vet character concepts in high power games and he needs to make sure the character created actually fits the agreed upon idea.

4. If it can be done by tech in your game maybe the PCs are better off buying it with cash rather than points. Meta Tech offers a great tool for gadget based heroes to be built on cash. Of course if you want an innate ability that's immune to breakage, theft or confiscation by the authorities it probably should be expensive. It should also include a power modifier that allows the GM to remove it at dramatically appropriate times. Alternatively, build to concept and don't worry about the point totals. They aren't great for balancing high powered games anyway.

5. Injury Tolerance: Damage Reduction exist for exactly this reason so does Hard to Kill. Supers suggests making both of these campaign settings in four color games rather than including them on character sheets. Power Ups 9 suggests reviving the third edition Stun Damage rules as another alternative.

There are often solutions to every issue a detractors can bring up in the rules. It's a matter of knowing they are there and choosing which ones to use to create the style of game you want to create.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

For GURPS Basic Set, this is true. But even GURPS Supers in 3e had a lot of setting switches to bring the system tools into a more 4-colour genre flavour.

I have not played a lot of 3e or 4e GURPS Supers but a system designed for realist stories will never handle say four-colour supers as well as a system built for that.

I think GURPS could be reinvented in the manner of some simpler generic systems IF SJG was willing to invest $100k or so in labour and risk losing the current customer base. Understandably they are not.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

What do you get out of having a printed system, if not the ability to use it as written? Anything you have to make up yourself seems like a place where the RAW is worse than a blank page.

I hardly ever run a campaign without circulating a set of "protocols" that include my house rules for that specific campaign. This is true not just in GURPS but in the majority of systems that I use.

[Anthony]

A point to consider when talking about how "expansion book X handles Y" is... competitors in the 'can do anything' market, such as BESM, Fudge, and Hero, can do it with just the base book -- expansions are nice to have but not actually needed.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Anthony

A point to consider when talking about how "expansion book X handles Y" is... competitors in the 'can do anything' market, such as BESM, Fudge, and Hero, can do it with just the base book -- expansions are nice to have but not actually needed.

Well, maybe not quite with BESM. If you want to play supers you're going to want to buy Absolute Power, which has the same underlying mechanics but customized for the genre, including higher top end abilities.