Priests and Mages in the same setting

[Whitewings]

And in the context of the time, all he actually does is go to Zeus to ask permission to marry her, then takes her off to her new home (kidnapping and marriage were literally the same word back then). Demeter pitches a truly apocalyptic hissy-fit, and we all know the rest.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Whitewings

Though I’m inclined to restrict most of the college of necromancy, as well as other spells dealing specifically with spirits (Awaken Craft Spirit, for example), to priests, this does lead to a fairly obvious problem: what kind of a god would empower demon summoning, the creation of the undead, and similar?

One who wants his followers to win? I mean, you probably don't call it demon summoning (your enemies call it that), and raising undead is probably either something done with permission of or for the benefit of the deceased (I mean, if someone gets murdered and you raise them as a draug to hunt down the murderer, is that really evil?) or to enemies.

[Whitewings]

I think I just solved the problem: Demon summoning and most necromantic spells are in the Path of Shadows, which is inaccessible through astrological magic or the wonders of the gods. Only very wicked magicians and their followers ever study it, and the texts needed are hard to come by at best. Some people have created authentic-looking but entirely useless "black books" to make those terrible secrets just that much harder to find. Unlike other Paths, the most fundamental spell, Contact Demon, doesn't required Magery, only Ritual Sorcery (Demonolatry), and the real texts include the needed instruction to gain a point in that. Of course, going past that requires Power Investiture, and demons don't extend credit.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Whitewings

And in the context of the time, all he actually does is go to Zeus to ask permission to marry her, then takes her off her new home (kidnapping and marriage were literally the same word back then). Demeter pitches a truly apocalyptic hissy-fit, and we all know the rest.

Given how chill Hades is in most stories, and how the two of them seem to have the only stable relationship in the Pantheon, I prefer to think of the Hades/Persephone situation as being more akin to the Paris/Helen one - a couple elopes without permission from the woman's "owner" (Demeter and Menelaus, respectively), then said "owner" raises some serious hell to get their "property" back. There are some theories that Persephone ate the pomegranate seeds on purpose, so as to have an excuse to stay with her husband for part of the year, as she would have known it was "the food of the dead" and also, as a goddess, either doesn't need to eat or only needs ambrosia to sustain herself.

Originally Posted by Whitewings

I think I just solved the problem: Demon summoning and most necromantic spells are in the Path of Shadows, which is inaccessible through astrological magic or the wonders of the gods. Only very wicked magicians and their followers ever study it, and the texts needed are hard to come by at best. Some people have created authentic-looking but entirely useless "black books" to make those terrible secrets just that much harder to find. Unlike other Paths, the most fundamental spell, Contact Demon, doesn't required Magery, only Ritual Sorcery (Demonolatry), and the real texts include the needed instruction to gain a point in that. Of course, going past that requires Power Investiture, and demons don't extend credit.

Ah, I see what your problem was, then - you wanted undead and summoned demons to be a thing, but they didn't fit with your intended treatment of priests or mages. I think a separate, secret Path is a good idea. If I'm interpreting things correctly, it sounds like anyone with Power Investiture can use the spells, provided they know the Path. I'm also assuming it's possible to sign a contract with a demon (after contacting them via the spell that doesn't require any special trait) to gain Power Investiture. Are both of those correct? I might be inclined to separate Power Investiture (Divine) from Power Investiture (Demonic), probably with the two being mutually-incompatible (someone with Divine PI either cannot make a contract with a demon or loses their PI if they do so), although in that case PI (Demonic) should probably have access to more than just Path of Shadows (unless Demonic PI is cheaper than Divine PI). You'd probably want to figure out some rituals that priests can learn but demonolaters cannot. Ideally, you'd have a large group of spells that everyone can use, a group that only mages and priests have access to, a group that only mages and demonolaters have access to, a group that only priests and demonolaters have access to, and then a group each that are exclusively the domain of each of mages, priests, and demonolaters (an argument could be made for spells that only mage-priests or only mage-demonolaters have access to, but that may be a bit too much).

[WingedKagouti]

Originally Posted by Whitewings

And in the context of the time, all he actually does is go to Zeus to ask permission to marry her, then takes her off her new home (kidnapping and marriage were literally the same word back then). Demeter pitches a truly apocalyptic hissy-fit, and we all know the rest.

There are some texts treating Zeus, Hades and Poseidon as the same deity, so in their version of the myth, it's Zeus taking Persephone from Demeter without permission and keeping her in the underworld.

And while we're on the topic of the ancient Greeks and demons, the word "demon" came from the ancient Greek daimon/daemon, which was a term for spirits and lesser deities who would sometimes guide people. The modern association with evil is attributed to Christianity in the mid-800s, where priests started using it as a way of vilifying other belief systems. This is mostly just a sidenote about the origin of the word, and not me trying to tell people to use it differently.

Heck, demons are unquestionably evil in the campaign I'm currently putting together, and any mage or priest accessing them for power will be considered enemies by civilization (and players won't have or get access to spells drawing upon that power).

[Whitewings]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Ah, I see what your problem was, then - you wanted undead and summoned demons to be a thing, but they didn't fit with your intended treatment of priests or mages. I think a separate, secret Path is a good idea. If I'm interpreting things correctly, it sounds like anyone with Power Investiture can use the spells, provided they know the Path. I'm also assuming it's possible to sign a contract with a demon (after contacting them via the spell that doesn't require any special trait) to gain Power Investiture. Are both of those correct?

The second one is, the first one isn’t. Power Investiture is patron-specific, and each Patron grants power to various Paths: some are common to most patrons, others are limited to only a few. Thus, only someone with Power Investiture from a demon can learn and perform the Path of Shadows rituals.

An inobvious consequence is that most well-trained occultists can reliably recognize black magic amulets, signs and sigils, and related signifiers.

Also, Sanctity of a given place varies with how well the patrons of those places get along and how compatible their portfolios are. The goddess of the oceans, for example, might be married to the god of fire, but a temple to one is just utterly wrong for performing rituals to the other. Oh, and Path magic uses effect shaping.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Whitewings

The second one is, the first one isn’t. Power Investiture is patron-specific, as are the various Paths, so only someone with Power Investiture from a demon can learn and perform the Path of Shadows rituals.

Then it isn't demon summoning in the first place. It's "summon divine servitor", and you happen to worship something considered malign.

A large percentage of "demons" are actually just "spirits of my enemy's faith". Devil and Deva have the same root.

[Donny Brook]

My solely personal aesthetic is that, in contrast to a magicworker, if a deity wants something to happen, it wouldn't take a lot of complex process by a priest to give it effect.

[WingedKagouti]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

My solely personal aesthetic is that, in contrast to a magicworker, if a deity wants something to happen, it wouldn't take a lot of complex process by a priest to give it effect.

In settings with one or more pantheons, the usual reasoning for having priests use complex rituals for an effect (skill rolls & FP cost in GURPS, spell slots in D&D, etc.), is that the effect is something the deity isn't actively considering at that point in time. Thus the rituals are a petition to the deity to make something happen and a failed roll could be a botched petition and/or the deity not being interested in the effect. A successful roll is a well made petition for an effect the deity is willing to grant.

With many deities, there's ample reason to think that the deity a priest worships will have to focus their attention on other deities, whether they're opposed, neutral or allied.

For monotheistic settings, it isn't unreasonable to think that the deity doesn't hand out miracles to everyone asking, but reserves them for those showing proper piety/devotion and the rituals do just that.