Fantasy Currency Suggestions

[WingedKagouti]

Originally Posted by Whitewings

But the spell Shape Earth causes a problem: I have no problem allowing it to be used to create gemstone, but since it can also be used to create metals,

Minor nitpick, but you seem to be talking about Earth to Stone and not Shape Earth here. Shape Earth can only change the shape of earth and stone, not change the composition (and it can't be used to mold metals, you need Shape Metal for that).

With that out of the way, metallic coins could still exist, but you would use metal alloys such as bronze (copper + tin) or steel (iron + coal), since Earth to Stone can only create simple metals these materials would be harder for a mage to create. Both steel and bronze have been used to make weapons and armor, giving both value on their own. Some other historical alloys include brass (copper + zinc), electrum (gold + silver), billon (silver + copper), and sterling silver (also silver + copper), some of these were invented for use as coinage that wasn't easy to forge (for the tech available).

It's worth noting that most alloys use specific ratios of each material, especially when talking about alloys used for coinage. Someone without expert knowledge in the field would most likely fail many times at creating an alloy suitable for forgeries.

On top of this, metal coins were (almost) never blank discs, but instead used a design based on the current ruler of the area. This adds another layer of complexity for a mage looking to create wealth from nothing.

If a mage were to create a pile of steel coins, they'd have to a) cast Earth to Stone (at double cost if targeting soil) to create iron, followed by casting Create Fuel TL/4 (or 5) on a rock to create coal. Then they'd have to spend time combining the two into steel using a crucible*. Once they have the steel they can start minting the coins, which requires a Counterfeiting roll and an amount of time (days to weeks) determined by the GM.

Not only would the mage need to get the proper mix of base metals (or other materials) that the alloy needs, they'd also need to follow the correct procedure for combining them into the alloy. If they mess up there, they'd need to start over or the coins would be almost instantly recognizeable as fakes. Then they'd have to spend time making fake coins with the alloy. And unless they get a critical success on the Counterfeiting roll, there's still the chance they get discovered every time they use one of their forged coins.

Overall, the entire process requires skills diverse enough that it isn't believable that a 150 points individual would possess all of them at a useful level. It's something a criminal organisation (or hostile nation/ruler) could be trying to do, and most intelligent rulers would be on the lookout for this type of thing.

*The Heat spell can be used, but (unless you're only heating up something the size of a fist) you're looking at a total of 170 FP (2 FP/minute for 85 minutes) to reach the required temperature to make steel. It's not a bad deal if you have Heat at 20, but that would be a massive investment for most.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by WingedKagouti

With that out of the way, metallic coins could still exist, but you would use metal alloys such as bronze (copper + tin) or steel (iron + coal), since Earth to Stone can only create simple metals these materials would be harder for a mage to create. Both steel and bronze have been used to make weapons and armor, giving both value on their own. Some other historical alloys include brass (copper + zinc), electrum (gold + silver), billon (silver + copper), and sterling silver (also silver + copper), some of these were invented for use as coinage that wasn't easy to forge (for the tech available).

On that topic, gold coins (and durable artifacts) often weren't made of pure gold either, but rather from Crown Gold, which is 22 parts gold, 2 parts other metals (typically silver or copper, or even a mix of the two). Crown gold is a bit harder and more durable than pure gold (which is rather soft for a metal), making it better for coins and the like.


For an extremely high-magic setting, you could also crib from the movie In Time, where the currency is lifespan. In that, it's some sort of limited immortality genegineering - people stop aging at 25, but have a bioluminescent clock on their wrist that counts down how much time they have left, starting with only 2 years. So long as they keep getting their time refreshed, they'll live forever (unless they take a bullet to the chest or similar). And all currency has been replaced with that time to live - it gets reduced to purchase things and you get paid for work in time (there are also devices where one can store time outside of a person; those under the age of 25 need to use such for transactions, as their own lifespans are untouchable). One can imagine a Fantasy version, with magic stones that can store lifespan, and being able to use it to make oneself younger (and spending it from personal reserves artificially aging you). Or it could be more like how it functioned in Chrno Crusade, where you essentially have a set amount of time to be alive and if you spend all of it, you simply die young (which is a bit more akin to how it functioned in In Time).

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Again, historically, cocoa beans were used as currency in Mesoamerica (I previously said South America, but that isn't quite right).

They weren't a very good form of currency, (money that rots has a lot of issues, although it does serve to minimize hoarding) and if Mesoamerican technology had run to stamping presses they'd have used coins instead; indeed, as soon as the technology was introduced they started to. Even before then, cacao beans weren't the only store of value, and they seem to have originally been intended as tokens representing a quantity of cotton cloth, which is too bulky to be carried around.

And gold and silver are useful, if you consider the creation of works of art to be useful (and many civilizations have)

.
Many cultures consider those desirable and decorative, which isn't the same thing. Purely decorative items are luxuries, and luxuries make useful currencies. You can't eat gold, you can't make it into a knife or a plow or an axe or a hammer, you can't burn it as fuel. Those are useful things.

Grains have also been used as a form of currency historically - indeed, it's believed the first official form of currency was barley, back in ancient Sumer.

Really bad ones that aren't sustainable in the long term, which is why once other currencies were developed people mostly stopped doing that. For a more recent (and hence better documented) example, in th3 Tokugawa Shogunate samurai were paid in specified amounts of rice, rather than land grants as in the past, which was becoming untenable due to there not being any land left to hand out, or coin, which the Shogun fancied they might hoard and use to make mischief. This led rapidly to the establishment of the Rice Exchange, where rice could be turned into things that weren't rice, which led in turn to rice speculation, rice hoarding, widespread famine and food riots. Also the economy cratered every time there was a bad harvest.

[Whitewings]

Earth to Stone can only create simple metals

One of the examples given in the book is bronze, so simple metals seems to cover two-component alloys. That makes the basic material a lot easier to get. Coin forging is still difficult, of course, but noticeably less so.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

They weren't a very good form of currency, (money that rots has a lot of issues, although it does serve to minimize hoarding) and if Mesoamerican technology had run to stamping presses they'd have used coins instead; indeed, as soon as the technology was introduced they started to. Even before then, cacao beans weren't the only store of value, and they seem to have originally been intended as tokens representing a quantity of cotton cloth, which is too bulky to be carried around.

Sure, coins would be preferable, but if coins aren't an option, paut or similar may serve instead. And there's no requirement that it be something that rots, degrades, etc - it's something like distilled magic, after all, lasting forever until consumed wouldn't be a problem.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

Many cultures consider those desirable and decorative, which isn't the same thing. Purely decorative items are luxuries, and luxuries make useful currencies. You can't eat gold, you can't make it into a knife or a plow or an axe or a hammer, you can't burn it as fuel. Those are useful things.

You can use it to make religious artefacts that allow you to do all those things* - maybe you can't eat gold**, but if that statue you made from it pleases the gods of the harvest so they bless your crops, you can certainly eat the result. And if you can convince your ruler to take as taxes a beautifully-crafted piece of silver in lieu of a greater quantity of hack-silver, you can use the excess to buy what you need.

*From the perspective of the user, anyway.
**You totally can, it just won't give you any nourishment.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

For a more recent (and hence better documented) example, in th3 Tokugawa Shogunate samurai were paid in specified amounts of rice, rather than land grants as in the past, which was becoming untenable due to there not being any land left to hand out, or coin, which the Shogun fancied they might hoard and use to make mischief. This led rapidly to the establishment of the Rice Exchange, where rice could be turned into things that weren't rice, which led in turn to rice speculation, rice hoarding, widespread famine and food riots. Also the economy cratered every time there was a bad harvest.

That caused significant problems because it turned a staple food - indeed the staple food - into currency. It's not difficult to imagine similar happening with other grains. Paut isn't a staple food, nor is it useful to anyone who isn't a mage, so it should be more reliable and stable than those. It's not as good as precious metal coins, but if those are nearly worthless as currency, I think paut could serve as a good alternative.

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Whitewings

One of the examples given in the book is bronze, so simple metals seems to cover two-component alloys. That makes the basic material a lot easier to get. Coin forging is still difficult, of course, but noticeably less so.

It only has to be difficult enough that it's easier for people with the skills/resources to do it to make a decent living on the right side of the law. That, combined with a reasonably efficient investigation/enforcement process for finding coiners, will serve to keep counterfeiting down to a level where it's not an economic crisis.

[WingedKagouti]

Originally Posted by Whitewings

One of the examples given in the book is bronze, so simple metals seems to cover two-component alloys. That makes the basic material a lot easier to get. Coin forging is still difficult, of course, but noticeably less so.

I personally believe that the writer either meant copper or actually thought that bronze was an element (and not an alloy of copper and tin).

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by WingedKagouti

I personally believe that the writer either meant copper or actually thought that bronze was an element (and not an alloy of copper and tin).

I'm pretty sure the author meant base metals. Which solves the problem because gold isn't a base metal.

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Sure, coins would be preferable, but if coins aren't an option

The point is that there's no reason coins aren't an option. As long as there's some means of distinguishing legitimate coins from fakes, coins will work as well in a society with plentiful metals as one with fewer metals, as we see in the industrial and postindustrial eras on earth.



, paut or similar may serve instead. And there's no requirement that it be something that rots, degrades, etc - it's something like distilled magic, after all, lasting forever until consumed wouldn't be a problem

You can use it to make religious artefacts that allow you to do all those things*

Fancy religious artifacts are a luxury, same as stained glass windows, elaborate murals, sculptures, etc. Poor places don't have them. No amount of prayer will plow the fields or reap the grain or dig the tubers and everyone in every culture knows it. (Mind, in a fantasy world, fancy gold icons might get the gods to plow your fields, but that's not the world under discussion here, which explicitly uses RAW GURPS magic).

but if that statue you made from it pleases the gods of the harvest so they bless your crops, you can
certainly eat the result.

And in that world, gold probably wont be used for coinage, something else will. In the world sketched by the OP, that doesn't apply. The crop blessing will come from a mage, and if the mage (who may also be a priest) wants gold in exchange for services, we're back to the only use of gold being a medium of exchange. If the gold statues are easier to make into power items, the you're probably back to the actual money being paper tokens that represent a notional amount of gold. In either case, you're basically back to the "Magebucks" idea I initially proposed, where a given unit of currency represents a specified amount of spellcasting, redeemable with every harvest mage on the continent, because they're all followers of the Harvest Temple or part of the Mage's Grange or whatever. Even mages who aren't have an incentive to take the money at list value, because they can always turn around and spend it on other things, because at bottom what it buys is food.

And if you can convince your ruler to take as taxes a beautifully-crafted piece of silver in lieu of a greater quantity of hack-silver, you can use the excess to buy what you need.

Peasants normally pay their taxes in kind even in a nominally monetary economy. People who are paying in coin don't necessarily have any easier way of getting the fancy sculpture than his lordship does, unless they're silversmiths themselves. And again, that's a luxury good, not a practical good. As are cacao beans, come to that.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I'm pretty sure the author meant base metals. Which solves the problem because gold isn't a base metal.

That's always what I've assumed. It just makes a lot of things work.



If you've got access to earth to stone, the amount of bronze you can produce is staggering. Its cheap enough you should probably making clay items and using a single casting of earth to stone for each item, because the costs of smithing start dwarfing the cost of the material.



Now, If you've nerfed that spell or are using a system without it, bronze is probably still fine as money.