[Meta-Tech] Cosmic, Chaining

[Varyon]

Over in the Meta-Tech Hype Thread, the author shared a modifier that was cut on account of being a bit too complex. Rather than derail that thread, I thought I would create a new one to discuss it.

First, we have the cut modifier itself:

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

Cosmic, Chaining: You can affect a limited number of targets after affecting your main target. This is done by the attack “jumping” to a new nearby target (describe how!) and requiring another roll to see if they are affected. To do this make a roll to hit the first target of your attack normally. If successful, note your margin of success. If your margin is enough to hit a nearby separate target after accounting for range penalties plus -1 per target after the first, they must make an active defense to avoid also being struck! Each yard traversed, minimum 1 yard, also reduces the number of new targets the attack can affect by 1. This cannot be combined with Rapid Fire. To determine the cost of this modifier, find the maximum number of jumps in the Linear Measurement column of the Size and Speed/Range Table (p. B550), read across to the Size column. Next, multiply the number from the Size column by +10% and then add +50%. This is the total cost of this modifier. For example, the cost to affect up to 15 targets would cost 5 (the value of the Size column, allowing up to 15 targets) ¥ +10% plus +50% or +100% as a modifier. This attack could then affect up to 15 nearby targets, or less if they are far apart.

I suggested a potential way to simplify it a bit:

Originally Posted by Varyon

Cosmic, Chaining: You can affect a limited number of targets after affecting your main target. This is done by the attack “jumping” to a new nearby target (describe how!) and requiring another roll to see if they are affected. To do this make a roll to hit the first target of your attack normally. If successful, note your margin of success - this is the potential number of targets you can hit beyond the first. If targets are more than one yard apart, each additional yard of separation uses up one additional hit. Any target hit by a chaining attack can attempt an active defense, just as though they were the initial target. This cannot be combined with Rapid Fire. To determine the cost of this modifier, find the maximum number of jumps in the Linear Measurement column of the Size and Speed/Range Table (p. B550), read across to the Size column. Next, multiply the number from the Size column by +10% and then add +50%. This is the total cost of this modifier. For example, the cost to affect up to 15 targets would cost 5 (the value of the Size column, allowing up to 15 targets) ¥ +10% plus +50% or +100% as a modifier. This attack could then affect up to 15 nearby targets, or less if they are far apart.

To which RyanW brought up some good objections:

Originally Posted by RyanW

Jumping from a large target to a smaller one should also probably consume additional hits equal to the difference in size modifier. And if a really big object, you may need to track point of impact rather than just empty distance between objects. Otherwise...

I shoot the planet with chain lightning. That's a +44 for size, zero range. And since all of my targets are in contact with the planet...

... which ultimately brings us here.

First off, I think RyanW is correct about tracking the point of impact, so you can't hit anyone in a building by striking the building (or, given this is intended for use in building gear, so you can't have your ship's main weapon pulp the bridge crew of an enemy vessel by striking it anywhere). And while I initially agreed about the need to account for SM, I think I've changed my mind. Why? Let us consider another Enhancement that follows the "base 50%, +10% per <whatever>" pricing - Cone. We'll look at a 10-yard long Cone for this.

At 1 yard wide, said Cone would cost +60% - the same as Cosmic, Chaining that can strike up to 3 targets. Provided they're lined up, the Cone could hit up to 10 targets, and could do this while aiming at the last target's hex, for +4 to hit. The Cosmic, Chaining equivalent would need all three targets to be adjacent to each other, although they wouldn't necessarily have to be in a straight line from the character, but the user would need to actually hit the first target, not just their hex. They could give up one target (meaning they can only hit two) by aiming at one's feet, but this probably shouldn't be worth as much as aiming at a hex would be (a hex is 4 yards tall). Because you basically get to move 1 yard for free, you could aim at the megahex the target is standing on, for +3 to hit (3 yards wide, approximating a circle). A 2 yard wide Cone would cost the same as a 5-target Cosmic, Chaining attack, but could hit up to 15 targets. 3 yards (up to ~20 targets) would correspond the a 7-target chain, 4 yards (up to 25) to 10, 5 yards (30) to 15, and so forth. Cosmic, Chaining does eventually overtake Cone... but the above is when the Cone is 10 yards long (you can divide the above numbers by 10, then multiply by the Cone's actual Range, to determine how many targets it could hit). Additionally, the more targets you have Cosmic, Chaining able to hit, the higher your initial MoS needs to be to actually hit all of them - sure, Cosmic, Chaining +130% hits up to 50 targets, which is more than the maximum 45 of a 10-yard attack with Cone +130% (8 yards), but it also calls for MoS 49 to pull it off.

So, I think allowing Cosmic, Chaining to ignore SM differences between targets would be fine.

I have some more thoughts for the trait - largely options to modify it further (more distance between targets before it deducts from MoS, an option for it to "fork" - splitting to strike multiple targets rather than having to go one-by-one - etc) - but I'll hold off on those for now.

[Kallatari]

I've always modeled these types of attack as a combination of three modifiers:

Area Effect (Varies), Bombardment (varies) and a special variant of Overhead +30%.

Area Effect determines the maximum number of targets; they have to be within the area of effect. A small area effect gives a small number of targets, and a larger one gives potentially more targets.

Bombardment represents the skill you roll to hit everyone within that area. If you want to potentially hit a lot of people, get a good skill. If your chain will only hit a few, get a small skill.

Anyway, the customization of how many people are hit is done by playing with Area Effect and Bombardment.

The variant of Overhead is meant to represent the fact that the attack on any given individual within the area is going to come from a random direction.. sometimes the front, sometimes the side, sometimes from behind, sometimes above or below, etc., depending on who the last person in the chain was and where they were positioned relative to the facing of the next target. That in theory should give modifiers to their defense from no penalty to automatic failure if from behind unless they have Danger Sense. Since calculating the exact trajectory when dealing with anything more than a couple of potential targets is not worth the headaches, I handwave it and just give everyone a -2, which is the same as the penalty for overhead if they weren't looking up. Thus I priced it the same as Overhead, which is +30%.

The attack rolls are made based on bombardment which determines who the chain actually went for, the defense rolls are made, and then you get a list of who was hit. The exact order of the chain is just a special effect.

If you really want "details", pick your method of chaining (e.g., starts at closest person to middle of area, then goes to closest person to that person, and so on, until it goes after everyone in the area) and then assign individual defense penalties based on the facing and direction the attack came from. I think that some get no penalty, some -2, some can't defend sort of balances out... but that slows the process down a lot. Just assigning a -2 lets you deal with a large group quickly). If the more detailed process was mandatory, I'd argue you'd probably want to bump the +30% to +50%, as more people are likely to have worse than -2. It might even be a higher value enhancement (but not as high as +150% which is the value of Surprise Attack, as not everyone in the chain is surprised either).

Anyway, I know this build might not be a "literal" definition of chain attack, which does go from one target to the next, but the final game effects - several people next to each other, but not necessarily everyone, are hit - are the same. And GURPS is usually about the end game results, not the "fluff" or "special effects" you assign to it. So I figured that was good enough for me.

[Varyon]

So, some further thoughts.

First off, there's a question of if the number of hits you calculate for (3 at +60%, 5 at +70%, 7 at +80%, etc) is the number of total hits or the number of additional hits. Personally, I prefer it to be number of total hits. This means it's +50% for a total of 2 hits (1 additional), +60% for 3 (2 additional), +70% for 5 (4 additional), etc. Otherwise one could argue for +30% for 1 additional hit (1 yard is SM -2, so 50% -20%), and that just doesn't feel right.

Next up, as I mentioned in the other thread, we need to handle the question of what happens when an attacks misses due to a successful defense. I feel the attack should simply end if the attack were Dodged, but if Blocked or Parried it can chain off that (basically arcing off of the shield/weapon) to hit another target... but a case could be made for a Dodged attack to arc off the ground to hit another target instead. Probably the best way to handle it is that it automatically ends upon any successful Active Defense, but a further Enhancement can change this. I'd say +10% if it uses up an additional hit, +20% if it doesn't. That is, let's say an attack can hit up to 5 targets. The initial strike hits the guy beside you with MoS 5+ and it arcs toward you, but you manage to get out of the way. At +0%, the attack ends there. At +10%, it arcs off you to target someone else, but it can only hit up to 2 additional targets (it used up one on the first target, one on you, and one on being able to continue after the defense). At +20%, it does the same but can hit up to 3 additional people (it used up one on the first target and one on you). If it only applies in certain cases, you could apply a Limitation to this Enhancement - I'd call only working on Blocks and Parries a -50% Limitation (making it +5%/+10%), while working on Blocks, Parries, and Dodges, but only if there's a nearby floor, wall, etc for it to arc off of as probably -10% (making it +9%/+18%).

There's also the question of if the attack can come back and strike someone who has already been hit (or has successfully defended if using the above Enhancements). I'd say by default it cannot, but a further +5% per time this can happen might be appropriate; I'd probably cap it at +50%, at which point there's no limit to how many times a single target can be hit (aside from the normal limits to how many total hits the attack can manage).

Another consideration is Cover DR. As written, this could potentially bypass Cover DR - you hit the wall someone is hiding behind and the attack arcs through it and hits them for full damage. That's too powerful, IMO. I feel this is actually a fairly simple fix - the attack cannot go directly behind the struck target without having it and all future hits be reduced by the target's Cover DR. So if someone is facing you directly and you hit them, the arc can go into any of their Front or Side hexes without issue, but to go into their Rear hex it has to go through them, and suffers a damage penalty equal to their Cover DR. Enhancements like Surging Arc and Armor Divisor would have their normal effect on this Cover DR.

Finally on things to address, there's how to deal with cases where MoS exceeds the maximum number of additional hits. This will generally only happen at relatively low levels of the Enhancement, but it occurs to me that treating each yard between targets as using up a hit is overly-harsh. If someone with Cosmic, Chaining +50% (2 total, so 1 additional target) manages to hit the first target with MoS 5, say, it seems unfair that they still can only target an adjacent foe for the second hit. So rather than each yard deducting 1 hit, just say each additional yard deducts 1 from MoS, and so does each hit. Simple enough.

With those issues out of the way, here are some further Enhancements.

Forking: Cosmic, Chaining normally hits targets one at a time. If you had three targets all in a line, to hit all three your best bet would be to aim at one of them on the end, as targeting the one on the middle would mean it would jump to one of the other two without issue, but then would have to traverse a longer distance to hit the one on the other side. With Forking, it could just hit the first target, then arc to both of the other two from the same point. Each target struck deducts from MoS, as per normal, so this can't be used to get you additional hits. I'd eyeball it at +10% per additional target that can be forked to (+10% if it splits into two, +20% if it splits into three, etc). Each fork can also fork upon hitting - so you could have 1 become 2, 2 become 4, 4 become 8, etc. Each fork must hit a different target, even if you have the above Enhancement that allows you to strike the same target multiple times.

Long-Range Chain: This increases the distance the arc can travel between targets before it suffers a -1 to MoS. As Long-Range is +50% and can go from Short-Range (-1 per yard) to Standard-Range (+0 up to 2 yards, -1 per SSR beyond this) or Standard to Long-Range, and the default for Cosmic, Chaining is similar to Regular, I'd call this +25%. A Cosmic, Chaining attack that is already Short-Range (so that it's already at -1 per yard) would probably require this Enhancement to be able to hit targets that aren't in the same hex as the original target (although it may be appropriate to reduce the price markedly), considering Cosmic, Chaining basically has a -1 step to Range built in (conversely, something with Long-Range would probably start at Standard for its chaining).


So, in summary, the proposed Enhancements are:

Forking +10%/level: This allows a Cosmic, Chaining attack to hit an additional number of targets from a single point of impact equal to the level of the Enhancement. Each additional hit subtracts 1 from MoS and counts against the maximum number of hits allowed - this cannot be used to increase the number of hits beyond what the ability's level of Cosmic, Chaining would allow for. Each fork can further fork. Each fork must strike a different target - even if you have Return Strike, below, you cannot have more than one fork striking a single target.

Long-Range Chain +25%: This increases the distance before additional attacks suffer a -1 to MoS from 1 yard to 2, and further has the penalty follow the Size and Speed/Range Table - -1 for 3 yards, -2 for 5 yards, -3 for 7 yards, -4 for 10 yards, etc. If the Cosmic, Chaining attack already has Long-Range, such that it uses Long-Distance Modifiers for the initial attack, it is treated as having this at no additional charge - or it can pay +25% to use the same Long Distance Modifiers as the initial attack.

Return Strike +5%/level: Normally, any given target can only be hit once by a single use of Cosmic, Chaining attack. This Enhancement allows you to strike one target per level who has previously been hit with the same attack. There must be at least one hit on a different target between two hits on the same one - the attack cannot simply loop back to strike the same target again, but you can have it jump continuously between two targets until all the hits are used up. At +50%, there is no limit to the number of times you can strike a previously-hit target.

Short-Range Chain -5%: This makes the additional arcs unable to strike targets that are not in the same hex as the original target. If the Cosmic, Chaining attack already has Short-Range, such that it suffers a -1 per yard for the initial attack, it is treated as having this at no additional reduction - or it can pay +5% to use the same Short-Range modifiers as the initial attack.

Unstoppable +10% or +20%: Normally, a Cosmic, Chaining attack ends prematurely if a target successfully defends. At the +10% level, the attack instead suffers a -1 to MoS from having been successfully defended against but otherwise continues on; at the +20% level, there is no further penalty to MoS, the attack simply continues as though it struck the target successfully. The target that successfully defended is treated as having already been struck for purposes of the Return Strike Enhancement, above.


EDIT:

Originally Posted by Kallatari

I've always modeled these types of attack as a combination of three modifiers:

Area Effect (Varies), Bombardment (varies) and a special variant of Overhead +30%.

Your proposed method can work for a randomly-chaining attack, but I get the feeling the proposed modifier is one where the character controls who each strike targets, like with Captain America throwing his shield (although I'm more inclined to just make that a special case of Rapid Strike, personally*).

*This in turn suggests an alternative to the above - I'd eyeball it at +20% and say it allows you to use Rapid Strike with an RoF 1 ranged attack as though it were a melee attack (normally you can only Rapid Strike up to the maximum RoF for a ranged attack). A version that is fluffed as bouncing between targets would be the same cost - it would gain the ability to potentially get around cover but would end prematurely upon the first miss or successful defense.

[Kallatari]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Your proposed method can work for a randomly-chaining attack, but I get the feeling the proposed modifier is one where the character controls who each strike targets, like with Captain America throwing his shield (although I'm more inclined to just make that a special case of Rapid Strike, personally*).

*This in turn suggests an alternative to the above - I'd eyeball it at +20% and say it allows you to use Rapid Strike with an RoF 1 ranged attack as though it were a melee attack (normally you can only Rapid Strike up to the maximum RoF for a ranged attack). A version that is fluffed as bouncing between targets would be the same cost - it would gain the ability to potentially get around cover but would end prematurely upon the first miss or successful defense.

You are correct that my method was about a random chain. I had not considered intentional targets before, and thinking about it now, I agree with you, modelling it after a Rapid Strike is likely a good way to do it.

Just brainstorming here, as I haven't fully thought this one through, but what about also applying or somehow incorporating Ricochet +10% to that. Ricochet lets you pick the path, range modifiers is calculated according to the path, with an additional -2 per bounce, and the target's defense modifier is based on where the final attack comes from.

Then we need this:

Cosmic: Rapid Strike Ricochet, +50%; if you hit your target, you do damage normally, and it can keep bouncing along your path to another target, which requires another hit roll, but previously distance still applies, as do previous -2 per bounce - and treating any previous target as a bounce - and then you roll again to hit the next target, with the Rapid Strike penalties of -6 per additional target (or -3 if you have an appropriate Weapon Master/Gunslinger/Spellslinger etc. trait).

You'd need a really high skill to hit multiple targets, but it may seem balanced... you don't have to bounce along multiple walls to get behind a target, and it will make you prefer targets that are close to each other.

Anyway, as I said, just a thought that came through my mind.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Kallatari

You are correct that my method was about a random chain. I had not considered intentional targets before, and thinking about it now, I agree with you, modelling it after a Rapid Strike is likely a good way to do it.

Just brainstorming here, as I haven't fully thought this one through, but what about also applying or somehow incorporating Ricochet +10% to that. Ricochet lets you pick the path, range modifiers is calculated according to the path, with an additional -2 per bounce, and the target's defense modifier is based on where the final attack comes from.

Then we need this:

Cosmic: Rapid Strike Ricochet, +50%; if you hit your target, you do damage normally, and it can keep bouncing along your path to another target, which requires another hit roll, but previously distance still applies, as do previous -2 per bounce - and treating any previous target as a bounce - and then you roll again to hit the next target, with the Rapid Strike penalties of -6 per additional target (or -3 if you have an appropriate Weapon Master/Gunslinger/Spellslinger etc. trait).

You'd need a really high skill to hit multiple targets, but it may seem balanced... you don't have to bounce along multiple walls to get behind a target, and it will make you prefer targets that are close to each other.

Anyway, as I said, just a thought that came through my mind.

Hmmm... I had forgotten about the Richochet Enhancement, that may be worth a look. Of course, one thing Cosmic, Chaining has going for it is that it's not horrendously expensive to hit multiple targets in a relatively small area, which keeps it more in line with Area Effect* or Cone, while anything based on Rapid Strike would require extremely high skill to strike a decent number of foes in the same situation. Granted, Cosmic, Chaining does call for pretty high skill to hit more than a few targets, particularly if they're more than a yard apart, but not as much as you'd need for Rapid Strike.

*I compared to Cone above, but Area Effect is worth a look as well. +50% is 2 targets, while Area Effect +50% covers 7 hexes. +100% would be 15 targets, while Area Effect +100% covers 37 hexes. +150% would be 100 targets, while Area Effect +150% would be 91 hexes - so we see Cosmic, Chaining allows for more potential hits at +150% and higher (at least if we assume no more than one target per hex), but that would require MoS 90 to roughly match what Area Effect can accomplish. Now, I think the increased flexibility of Chaining makes the original price appropriate, despite it typically being inferior in other respects to Area Effect and Cone (one might also make the argument that Area Effect or Cone should have Selective Area to match more closely with what Cosmic, Chaining can do, as the latter doesn't hit anyone you don't want it to; in that case, you're looking at 5 targets for +70% compared to 7 hexes for AE 2 yards, 30 targets for +120% compared to 37 hexes for AE 4 yards, and 200 targets for +170% compared to 91 hexes for AE 8 yards).

[Kallatari]

Just thinking of something about your Cosmic, Chaining, and seeking clarification. Do you need a hit roll for each target? Or is the original attack roll and its margin of success the only thing that determines if you hit the additional targets (pending their own active defense results, of course).

I ask because can this be used as an abusive way to hit someone that is difficult to hit. e.g., a target is Obscured, giving a -10 to hit, so you hit someone next to him (or the ground) with chaining that has no penalty, you get a margin that allows one extra target, so you then hit him... but had you targeted him directly with the -10 you would never have succeeded.


A few other thoughts...

I haven't gone through your proposed values in detail, or their comparison to AE or Cone, and need more time to wrap my head around it, but I think that Cosmic, Chaining should be worth less than Area of Effect or Cone, because you are unlikely to get all of the additional targets, especially at higher values. If it's solely based on MoS, it's almost worth making Cosmic, Chaining a flat cost... +50%, or maybe +100% if you think it's then overpowered, as it's not additional points that get you more targets, it's better skills and hit rolls.

Another alternative, what about pricing Cosmic, Chaining as a variation of Rapid Fire, replacing RoF with maximum number of targets? Or a combination.. base of 50% + the Rapid Fire for number of targets. (For what it's worth, I personally prefer the SSRT pattern, and in my house rules I've even modified Rapid Fire to follow that progression at a flat cost per level, but sadly not everyone likes the SSRT, so using Rapid Fire (p.B108) value may get more of a buy in)

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Kallatari

Just thinking of something about your Cosmic, Chaining, and seeking clarification. Do you need a hit roll for each target? Or is the original attack roll and its margin of success the only thing that determines if you hit the additional targets (pending their own active defense results, of course).

I ask because can this be used as an abusive way to hit someone that is difficult to hit. e.g., a target is Obscured, giving a -10 to hit, so you hit someone next to him (or the ground) with chaining that has no penalty, you get a margin that allows one extra target, so you then hit him... but had you targeted him directly with the -10 you would never have succeeded.

First and foremost, Cosmic, Chaining isn't something I came up with - it's something Christopher Rice came up with for his upcoming GURPS Meta-Tech book but wound up cutting and shared with the forum as a sort of early-access Designer's Notes. From my reading of it, you only need to hit the initial target, and then later ones are automatically hit (but still get an Active Defense to avoid it). Yes, this does make it easier to hit an Obscured target, at least if you can detect them (hard to tell your attack to hit someone you have no idea where they are), but so do Area Effect and Cone - that -10 to hit doesn't matter when you target their hex.

Originally Posted by Kallatari

I haven't gone through your proposed values in detail, or their comparison to AE or Cone, and need more time to wrap my head around it, but I think that Cosmic, Chaining should be worth less than Area of Effect or Cone, because you are unlikely to get all of the additional targets, especially at higher values. If it's solely based on MoS, it's almost worth making Cosmic, Chaining a flat cost... +50%, or maybe +100% if you think it's then overpowered, as it's not additional points that get you more targets, it's better skills and hit rolls.

It's possible that +50% for an unlimited (at least while MoS lasts) version of Cosmic, Chaining would be appropriate. Note that the +100% version is already pretty close to that, as you need an MoS of at least 14 - more if your targets aren't all adjacent to each other - to land all hits. Personally, I feel +100% is probably roughly fair for such an unlimited version, in which case you could use the proposed pricing to allow for more limited versions.

Originally Posted by Kallatari

Another alternative, what about pricing Cosmic, Chaining as a variation of Rapid Fire, replacing RoF with maximum number of targets? Or a combination.. base of 50% + the Rapid Fire for number of targets. (For what it's worth, I personally prefer the SSRT pattern, and in my house rules I've even modified Rapid Fire to follow that progression at a flat cost per level, but sadly not everyone likes the SSRT, so using Rapid Fire (p.B108) value may get more of a buy in)

That could be an option, but up to 15 hits the pricing is pretty similar and above that you'd be paying far too much for the Rapid Strike variant. Have a table:

Hit/RoF	Chain	Rapid Fire
2	+50%	+40%
3	+60%	+50%
7	+80%	+70%
15	+100%	+100%
30	+120%	+150%
70	+140%	+200%
150	+160%	+250%
300	+180%	+300%

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Kallatari

Just thinking of something about your Cosmic, Chaining, and seeking clarification. Do you need a hit roll for each target? Or is the original attack roll and its margin of success the only thing that determines if you hit the additional targets (pending their own active defense results, of course).

I ask because can this be used as an abusive way to hit someone that is difficult to hit. e.g., a target is Obscured, giving a -10 to hit, so you hit someone next to him (or the ground) with chaining that has no penalty, you get a margin that allows one extra target, so you then hit him... but had you targeted him directly with the -10 you would never have succeeded.

You can do the same with area attacks and explosions, though.