Important organizations with Courtesy Rank for standard ranks

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by johndallman

The set of people you're in charge of. However, there are quite a few important people who aren't in charge of anyone.

This is a significant point. It can often matter whether you count down from the top or up from the bottom. Imagine an company with 10 grades. You can have 12 entry-level grade 10 call center workers reporting to a grade 9 team supervisor who is among 5 in the same grade reporting to an grade 7 or 8 manager. Conversely you can have a CEO with 5 executive VPs, over a CFO with 4 grade 3 Senior VPs including the company auditor with only a handful of professional accountants and no reprts below them.

[dcarson]

And groups that are small enough at least on a operational scale and cover a wide rank of things Rank gets ignored a lot based on skills. For a fictional example you have a million lensmen covering a quarter million planets. You have a prisoner with mind shields and compulsions. The one of the 16-20 locally available lensmen that is the best at cracking the shields without triggering the compulsions so they just die would be in charge no matter what rank. So not Courtesy Rank but Rank means less much of the time.

[The Colonel]

Would this work - as noted in the OP for Jedi (or Firefly style agents of Parliament) and similar "agents at large" who have the authority to walk into organisations that work for the same state - typically military or police - and take over?

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

Would this work - as noted in the OP for Jedi (or Firefly style agents of Parliament) and similar "agents at large" who have the authority to walk into organisations that work for the same state - typically military or police - and take over?

That's kinda the opposite of Courtesy Rank - power in excess of your nominal rank. Spectres in Mass Effect - and the Pathfinders in Mass Effect: Andromeda - are similar, although being a Spectre/Pathfinder is essentially a rank in and of itself (although Shepherd is typically just addressed with their more mundane Commander rank). I'd say these types of characters would have a very high Rank, and furthermore it would be a Rank in multiple organizations as well as one that has essentially everyone under your Rank in your chain of command (for Agents and Spectres, they only have Parliament and the Council, respectively, above them; Pathfinders have nobody above them IIRC, as they are the leaders of the expedition). I'd need to take a look at Social Engineering or perhaps Social Engineering: Pulling Rank to see if there's a GURPS treatment for these types of characters in one of those.

I don't really recall the Jedi taking over in places. Obi-Wan is given the VIP treatment on Kamino because they think he's there representing the client who commissioned the creation of the Clone Army, not because he's a Jedi with power over them. And when Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were sent to Naboo, they were there to represent the Republic for negotiations and should have been treated more-or-less like ambassadors (albeit ambassadors with Legal Enforcement Powers, which is a big part of why the Trade Federation was terrified). The reference in OP was to the Jedi organization having formal ranks but the ranks tending not to give any sort of command authority - a Knight can't command any Padawan (aside from their personal apprentice), a Master can't command any Knight. This changed to some degree in the Clone Wars, with Jedi all having a Rank in the Army of the Republic (Jedi Commander at a minimum, and some like Obi-Wan were Generals), but I don't think this command extended to other Jedi (that is, I'm not certain General Obi-Wan Kenobi could have given legal orders to Commander Ahsoka Tano; General Anakin Skywalker could, but that would be because she was his Padawan).

[Kromm]

A lot of the "not sure" and "disagree" here is caused by people thinking there's a difference between Courtesy Rank and Rank that costs 1 point/level under the optional Rank-pricing rules in GURPS Social Engineering. In brief, all Rank includes Courtesy Rank for 1 point/level . . . but interestingly, if the organization in which you hold Rank isn't unique in your society, there's a -1 point/level, and you can get back to 1 point/level by dint of having subordinates you can order around, or having resources or special assets you can call upon.

Take my friend in National Defense, for instance:

Nominal Hierarchical Position With Title (Courtesy Rank): Mandatory. 1/level.

Chain of Command: No! It's like a regular job, and there are tons of dotted lines, making it very unclear who's in charge of whom. At any rate, "orders" would be too strong . . . more like showing up for a performance review once a year. 0/level.

Resources: Perpetually lacking. All OR funding comes from grants with major competition (I helped prepare grant applications). This stands in stark contrast to the U.S.A. 0/level (U.S. counterparts would get 2/level).

Special Assets: Also lacking. Their big thing is using COTS (commercial, off-the-shelf) gear to do what the military gets fancy tech for. Again, this is not the same as in the U.S.A. 0/level (U.S. counterparts would get 1/level).

Dominance or Uniqueness: Definitely. Nobody else is allowed to be National Defense. 0/level for having it (as opposed to -1/level for not having it).

Legitimacy: While the organization serves the state, those who work for it do not enjoy enhanced respect (reaction bonus or imputed Status). 0 points/level.

Total Control: Obviously not the government! 0/level.

So, 1 point/level that is Courtesy Rank but we could call it Administrative Rank (National Defense) and nothing would change. In the U.S.A., I'd say that same Rank would be 4-5 points/level, and you'd want to call it Administrative Rank (National Defense) for sure.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Kromm

<snip>

Take my friend in National Defense, for instance:

Nominal Hierarchical Position With Title (Courtesy Rank): Mandatory. 1/level.

Chain of Command: No! It's like a regular job, and there are tons of dotted lines, making it very unclear who's in charge of whom. At any rate, "orders" would be too strong . . . more like showing up for a performance review once a year. 0/level.

Resources: Perpetually lacking. All OR funding comes from grants with major competition (I helped prepare grant applications). This stands in stark contrast to the U.S.A. 0/level (U.S. counterparts would get 2/level).

Special Assets: Also lacking. Their big thing is using COTS (commercial, off-the-shelf) gear to do what the military gets fancy tech for. Again, this is not the same as in the U.S.A. 0/level (U.S. counterparts would get 1/level).

Dominance or Uniqueness: Definitely. Nobody else is allowed to be National Defense. 0/level for having it (as opposed to -1/level for not having it).

Legitimacy: While the organization serves the state, those who work for it do not enjoy enhanced respect (reaction bonus or imputed Status). 0 points/level.

Total Control: Obviously not the government! 0/level.

So, 1 point/level that is Courtesy Rank but we could call it Administrative Rank (National Defense) and nothing would change. In the U.S.A., I'd say that same Rank would be 4-5 points/level, and you'd want to call it Administrative Rank (National Defense) for sure.

I think you misunderstand your friend's position in DND. From your admittedly abbreviated description, I gather that your friend works at NDHQ. However, NDHQ employs both military and civilian personnel. First, a point about military employment by ranks in Canada. By far the greatest proportion of General Officers (i.e., Brigadiers, Major-Generals, Lieutenant-Generals and the General) are employed at NDHQ. Only four Regular force General Officers are employed as commanders of formations. (This excludes those so employed by the RCN and RCAF, but even including them, it remains true.) Likewise, Colonels are almost exclusively a staff rank as opposed to a command rank. That being said, none of them have courtesy rank.

One thing that may cause confusion is titles such as "Director-General of Personnel" or "Vice-Comptroller for Pensions." I remember complaining about the influence of U.S. title puffery coming to Canada when I saw those titles on some of the paperwork coming from NFHQ and complaining why they couldn't be satisfied with just their ordinary military rank, which was also being used. I was immediately corrected that the titles I was complaining about were not U.S. imports but Canadian civil service ranks that were also required to be used as they justified what the person filling the position was paid. [As a note once you get above the rank of Lt. Col., or its equivalent in the CF, you are no longer governed by the pay scales and negotiate your pay directly with the ministry. Thus someone with a Director-General title is paid at the level of a Director-General in the civil service. This doesn't make Director-General a military rank though.]

The idea that your friend has no one who reports to him, not even a typist/clerk and that he has no access to resources or special assets suggest more that he is a civil service employee of DND rather than a military employee. In which event, he does have Administrative Rank rather than Military Rank (Courtesy).

[Kromm]

No, I understand very well, because he tried to recruit me, and I even attended some events they hosted. He works on overseas assignments for DRDC CORA, where he gets called "brigadier general" because the NATO partners insist that he be called something and that's what some guy in Italy decided. His top boss is the Assistant Deputy Minister of Science and Technology. CORA is distinct from DGMPRA, which is where all the military people are. His office and colleagues are 100% nonmilitary. And I'd say Courtesy Rank – which you could call Administrative Courtesy Rank if you like – describes his situation very well, as there's literally nothing to distinguish his job from that of someone who does the same job for any of 100 R&D corporations other than the odd title he gets at NATO and NORAD functions. Per my original proposition, there is a Security Clearance, but that's separate from Rank.

[acrosome]

Originally Posted by Kromm

[Everything that Kromm said.]

Civilians working for the US DoD work the same way- often they will even have a rank equivalent stated on some paperwork. For instance, if one has to travel to an austere overseas base then they are provided with temporary quarters commensurate with their Courtesy Rank, and possibly even assigned an aide or guide if they rank highly enough. They can eat at the officers mess if they are an officer-equivalent, and they would expect social calls with the generals if they are a general-equivalent, etc. (And I would argue that low-ranking DoD Civilians can have Courtesy Rank 0, which would basically get them a cot in a 30-man bay and let them eat at the junior enlisted mess.)

However I have never heard of one being addressed with a military rank. They are still Mr. or Ms. (or probably Sir or Ma'am). Or maybe "Madame Secretary" or somesuch, but that's different, that's Administrative Rank. Right?

The creepy CIA guys and other agencies which should be obvious can also be given a Courtesy Rank when on a remote overseas military base, too.

[Phil Masters]

Originally Posted by acrosome

Civilians working for the US DoD work the same way- often they will even have a rank equivalent stated on some paperwork.
...
However I have never heard of one being addressed with a military rank. They are still Mr. or Ms. (or probably Sir or Ma'am).

Yeah. I recall my wife's company (which did a lot of work with the military) had a semi-official table of equivalent ranks, in the sense of "if we're talking to a captain, we'd better send a manager; generals get a director...", for the sake of politeness, but there was never any suggestion that anyone should be addressed by a rank.

Originally Posted by acrosome

The creepy CIA guys and other agencies which should be obvious can also be given a Courtesy Rank when on a remote overseas military base, too.

I'm currently playing a character who is a Scotland Yard Detective Inspector (c. 1948) on secondment to Military Intelligence (long story); I gave him Courtesy Police Rank 3 (he's "DI Morris" in his old stamping grounds), Legal Enforcement Powers 1 (he still carries his warrant card), and Military Rank 4 (his new employers breveted him to Captain because his new job - hunting Nazi mad scientists and other threats - is that significant).

[Pursuivant]

Depending on the service, medical officers, JAG officers, chaplains and similar "non-line" officers might effectively have just Courtesy Rank, although they might have a "Situational Authority" perk which gives them full rank in very limited contexts.

Historically, military officers might have Courtesy Rank during peacetime during military drawdowns or in any era while waiting for their next assignment. For example, because there were more officers than billets, British Napoleonic-era naval officers were often "beached" or "yellowed," with just Courtesy Rank and half-pay while they were stuck on shore awaiting their next assignment.

They're not important by today's standards, but in the United States in the 19th and early 20th centuries, there were volunteer militias which could have real social clout, but with officers with so little authority that they effectively had just Courtesy Rank.

Some outfits were little more than social clubs with fancy uniforms, but since their members were equipped with real weapons, they could be theoretically mobilized as riot police or to put down slave rebellions. In those cases, their officers might have real authority for the duration of the emergency.

The same holds true for frontier militias organized to fight Indians and for loosely organized social clubs like the Masons.