What skill(s) would best capture Logistics?

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

I'm somewhat dubious of the value of Merchant to wartime military logistics. It might be used for peacetime procurement, but war has a tendency to put such a strain on a society's resources that to get the supplies you need you tend to have governments dictating prices at which suppliers must sell or (especially when in enemy territory) just taking the stuff they need without paying for it. And the challenge is not so much haggling as figuring out how much grain you need to take from this town to get to the next town you can take a bunch of grain from.

That implies something like a Total War scenario (where essentially your entire society is on a war footing, like the US during the World Wars), or at least a setting where the government has a lot of power. It also implies you won't be getting anything from allies and/or neutral societies for the war effort (or one side in the exchange is able to just dictate what the compensation will be without any room for argument). And even in that scenario, at the smaller scale (like a Company quartermaster, perhaps), you may well still have a good deal of unofficial wheeling and dealing going on between your own units, typically in the form of barter (I'll give you these cartons of cigarettes for those crates of ammunition, you can have these batteries if you'll give us those boxes of rations, etc).

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Scrounging is _exactly_ the skill of small scale informal trading, wheeling and dealing to get what you want or need.

On the big screen, The Great Escape gives us James Gardner's character Hendley, getting the prisoners in the camp whatever they need for their plan. Exemplified on the small screen by Radar in M*A*S*H, several characters in Black Sheep Squadron, and any or all of those no doubt consciously referenced in the activities of Jake and Nog in the DS9 episode "Progress".

MacGyver is a more ambiguous case. He's rarely trading, but does "find, salvage, or improvise" materials that he uses to make whatever he needs. That could be Scrounging, maybe just Serendipity. But MacGyver's also supposed to be very smart and inventive, so some of it (by the show's premise) is that he can improvise a plan to use whatever he happens to come across, as opposed to coming up with a plan and then having to locate what's necessary to implement it. So, Quick Gadgeteer. Since he's a heroic TV protagonist, I'd probably just go for all of the above.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Varyon

That implies something like a Total War scenario (where essentially your entire society is on a war footing, like the US during the World Wars), or at least a setting where the government has a lot of power. It also implies you won't be getting anything from allies and/or neutral societies for the war effort (or one side in the exchange is able to just dictate what the compensation will be without any room for argument). And even in that scenario, at the smaller scale (like a Company quartermaster, perhaps), you may well still have a good deal of unofficial wheeling and dealing going on between your own units, typically in the form of barter (I'll give you these cartons of cigarettes for those crates of ammunition, you can have these batteries if you'll give us those boxes of rations, etc).

Hmmm, so maybe I should have been more specific, I'm thinking mostly about pre-railroad logistics here. The problem is that you want to concentrate your forces to avoid defeat in detail, but before railroads or trucks you tend to need to get supplies locally, which then strains local resources even if society as a whole is not on a total war footing. See here.

As for "government having a lot of power", while pre-modern governments often did not have the administrative capacity to micromanage everyone's lives at all times, 20,000 hungry soldiers showing up at your doorstep in an area where urban populations are mostly measured in thousands or tens of thousands is inherently a situation that involves big power imbalances.

[Kromm]

Some talking at cross-purposes here is a result of simply assuming that "logistics" means "military logistics." That's a bad assumption.

Classic supply-chain logistics is mostly about making money. You want to get the right amounts of the right stuff to the right people in the right places at the right times. Key elements of this include avoiding spoiled or damaged goods that could waste money; not amassing surpluses you must store somewhere, costing you money, and that you might be unable to use or sell off, wasting money; preventing delays or damage in transit that could cost you customer trust or satisfaction and lose you money; and of course doing all this, especially the parts related to transportation, as efficiently as possible so that you can either avoid spending too much or can keep prices low enough to attract sales.

Military logistics is more concerned with responsiveness, particularly through prepositioning and forward-basing, and the KISS principle, on the logic that the goods are ultimately transported and used by the average recruit, and that in a conflict, you don't want complex systems breaking down, which puts tried-and-true survivability ahead of experiments. It also tends to take as read that the resource involved exist – paid for by taxpayers, the king, looting, whatever – and so isn't as concerned with financial matters. Finances come up mostly when some politician starts looking at budgets . . . which brings up a final difference, which is that there are clear links to politics and state economics, which aren't much like corporate administration and economics.

The two are rather different, much as "business strategy" isn't "military strategy," despite a generation of annoying rich people writing about how The Art of War is good for either. I think you need to specify which one you're aiming at.

In GURPS terms, you need Administration either way. But in business logistics, you also need Accounting and Market Analysis in a big way, and likely a basic grasp of Economics, Finance, and Merchant; Current Affairs is a plus in the media-oriented modern world, as is Propaganda for advertising (which isn't just for marketers . . .). In military logistics, you'd better be good with Geography in the regions of possible operation, know Savoir-Faire (Military) to work the system, and probably have modest Tactics and/or Strategy, depending on your scale of operations; Expert Skill (Military Science) is extremely likely, Leadership will often replace Administration on the ground (see p. B346), and at the highest levels Diplomacy and Politics are vital.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

Hmmm, so maybe I should have been more specific, I'm thinking mostly about pre-railroad logistics here. The problem is that you want to concentrate your forces to avoid defeat in detail, but before railroads or trucks you tend to need to get supplies locally, which then strains local resources even if society as a whole is not on a total war footing. See here.

As for "government having a lot of power", while pre-modern governments often did not have the administrative capacity to micromanage everyone's lives at all times, 20,000 hungry soldiers showing up at your doorstep in an area where urban populations are mostly measured in thousands or tens of thousands is inherently a situation that involves big power imbalances.

Yeah, I think that would count under my "government has a lot of power" situation, although that was probably too simplistic of phrasing. Basically, Merchant is likely to come up any time where one side of an exchange (the providers or the recipients) isn't able to dictate the terms of the exchange (if they can, it could range from "We'll pay you full market value for your goods" to "Be grateful we're only taking your stuff and not killing you" or even killing the providers and taking their stuff, if the recipients are in control of the power imbalance; and from "Here, you can have our old gear, no charge" to "You'll pay us 100x market value and be thankful for our generosity," if the providers are in control). Pre-railroad and similar, and in some cases later, I believe you are correct that there's typically a major power imbalance in favor of the marching army in situations like this. I was thinking more in terms of a more modern scenario, or at least one in a setting with more modern sensibilities.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Kromm

In GURPS terms, you need Administration either way. But in business logistics, you also need Accounting and Market Analysis in a big way, and likely a basic grasp of Economics, Finance, and Merchant; Current Affairs is a plus in the media-oriented modern world, as is Propaganda for advertising (which isn't just for marketers . . .). In military logistics, you'd better be good with Geography in the regions of possible operation, know Savoir-Faire (Military) to work the system, and probably have modest Tactics and/or Strategy, depending on your scale of operations; Expert Skill (Military Science) is extremely likely, Leadership will often replace Administration on the ground (see p. B346), and at the highest levels Diplomacy and Politics are vital.

It's almost like you're saying real expertise is the synergy of multiple skills, often using Complementary Skill Rolls.

That sounds like crazy talk. Can't I just buy up STR? I don't like this multiple attribute dependency stuff.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

That sounds like crazy talk. Can't I just buy up STR? I don't like this multiple attribute dependency stuff.

In my campaign you could buy Hammer! and treat the wonderful world of logistics as a nail. (Apologies to Tank Tolman.)

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by Kromm

The two are rather different, much as "business strategy" isn't "military strategy," despite a generation of annoying rich people writing about how The Art of War is good for either.

Slight tangent: There is at least one chapter that does apply to both, but it's exactly the one which modern annoying rich people seem to most want to ignore or misinterpret: Sun Tsu devoted an entire chapter on the necessity of adequately feeding your soldiers (or indeed, feeding them at all), which in business would be 'giving your workers adequate pay and benefits.'

Originally Posted by Kromm

I think you need to specify which one you're aiming at.

Yes, absolutely. Personally, I'd allow separate Expert Skills for both Military Logistics and Business Logistics, since that seems like one of the things that 'Expert Skill' was written for.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Kromm

In my campaign you could buy Hammer! and treat the wonderful world of logistics as a nail. (Apologies to Tank Tolman.)

Can I buy Anvil! ?

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

Slight tangent: There is at least one chapter that does apply to both, but it's exactly the one which modern annoying rich people seem to most want to ignore or misinterpret: Sun Tsu devoted an entire chapter on the necessity of adequately feeding your soldiers (or indeed, feeding them at all), which in business would be 'giving your workers adequate pay and benefits.'

Quite true. The bizarre business interpretation likes to regard competition, sales, marketing, employee-employer relations, and most everything else in the commercial world as a hostile situation, which mostly fails because it isn't true for anyone who isn't a card-carrying anarcho-capitalist. And in doing so, it overlooks the one place the text says to be nice, conveniently getting everything wrong.

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

Yes, absolutely. Personally, I'd allow separate Expert Skills for both Military Logistics and Business Logistics, since that seems like one of the things that 'Expert Skill' was written for.

Same. I think that'd be a lot simpler, especially if one bends the rules a little to let these Expert Skills be practical at times, since the knowledge they cover can be used for more than answering questions.

Business Logistics: Expertise with civilian supply chains – demand forecasting, warehousing, order fulfillment, shipping, etc. – generally in the context of making money. Can stand in for all uses of Administration; for any specialty of Current Affairs when the goal is to identify emerging markets, customers, or threats to the acquisition or delivery of goods; and for any use of business skills (Accounting, Economics, Finance, Market Analysis, Merchant, or Propaganda) to set up, maintain, or troubleshoot supply chains. Does not cover Freight Handling or vehicle skills for the actual, hands-on work. Skills for product design (e.g., Engineer) are often complementary when dealing with those specific products.

Military Logistics: The black art of transporting, prepositioning, distributing, and storing the equipment, provisions, and munitions of armed forces. Can substitute for all uses of Administration; for Diplomacy, Politics, or any specialty of Geography when the objective is to work around physical or political obstructions to the movement of materiel; and for any use of Leadership, Savoir-Faire (Military), Strategy, or Tactics for the specific purpose of functioning as a logistics officer (but never for actual battlefield command!). Does not cover Freight Handling, Hazardous Materials, Scrounging, or vehicle skills for the actual, hands-on work. Expert Skill (Military Science) is often complementary.

I'm not bothered by a Hard skill (Expert Skill) basically including an Average one (Administration) plus some peripheral bits. The above approach would really clean up and focus character sheets in the context of tasks that fairly rarely matter in most campaigns.