Hermetic Astrology on other planets

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Inky

The signs of the Zodiac don't have anything to do with the constellations and aren't supposed to - they're defined by the seasons/the Sun's path along the ecliptic (tropical zodiac), as 12 equal divisions of the ecliptic starting from the Sun's position at the spring equinox, the constellation names are just convenient labels.

That looks like an after the fact rationalization. I suspect that the signs of the Zodiac did originally refer to the constellations through which the actual, visible planets were passing (after all, astrologers don't claim that the "planets" are merely formal abstract points that have nothing to do with the Sun and Moon and Mars and so on). But then astrologers didn't update as things shifted celestially. And then they came up with the business about the tropical Zodiac to explain it away, like the kind of thing that Marvel Comics used to give no-prizes for after Stan Lee wrote something silly.

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by johndallman

They're in Thaumatology.

And those are adapted from Cabal.

If I were doing this, I'd probably draw inspiration from C.S. Lewis's “The Discarded Image”. Earth is the center of the model, but also the “bottom” of it — a place that's insignificant with regard to the music of the spheres. The Moon serves as the barrier between Earth and the Heavens; and that would remain true even from a Martian colony — the only real difference being that the Martians would be looking at that divide from the outside, and would see Earth isolated by the Moon and silent, contributing nothing but serving as a receptacle for the influence of the planets. No other planet has something like the Moon drawing a boundary between them and the Heavens; rather, the rest of the planets are inherently part of the Heavens.

That said, every planet, including the Earth, has an Intelligence associated with it. For the Earth, that Intelligence is Fortune; and a case could be made that the reason why the influences of the other planets take the form of guiding people's destinies on Earth is because they get filtered through that self-same Fortune. In and around the other planets, the influences would be different in nature, reflecting the nature of a given planet's guiding intelligence. On Mars, that fishing Intelligence is in charge of the martial spirit; and influences from other planets would be felt through that lens: Venus, for instance, would influence Mars by reinforcing the “Band of Brothers” aspect of the martial spirit: the camaraderie that comes from putting your life in your fellow warriors' hands and doing the same for them; the jovian influence on Mars would take Jupiter's role as the King of the planets and would translate it to generals; Mercury's role would translate to scouts; Sol's influence, which on Earth manifests with regard to fortunes pertaining to scholarship, would on Mars emphasize the art of war and martial arts: violence as an art form. And Saturn's influence on Mars would be to play up the toughness of a soldier and the willingness to put it all on the line to achieve the objective.

[Whitewings]

As interesting as all this has been, it's gone rather far afield from my original question, which might not have been entirely clear: what rules changes might be appropriate for a mage using Hermetic Astrology-based magic while on Mars instead of on Earth?

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Whitewings

As interesting as all this has been, it's gone rather far afield from my original question, which might not have been entirely clear: what rules changes might be appropriate for a mage using Hermetic Astrology-based magic while on Mars instead of on Earth?

<shrug>I'm not a space-travelling Hermetic Mage and I'd be surprised if anyone else on this board was either. Semi-informed speculation is all I have to offer you. I don't have a definitive answer to msot of your questions

with the Decans I think the only change is that the Decanic periods are longer.

Planetary influences are going to be a problem to calculate even without the Earth-Mars switch. The other planets are going to be in other parts of the sky except when Earth and Mars are nearing their minmum distance.

Incidentally, if a Cabalist was to use his magic to travel to "Mars" he might well end up on the "Mars" in Briah the iconic realm rather than the physical planet in our solar system where he couldn't breath or keep from freezing without a lot of magic.

[Whitewings]

Let me try again.

When casting a spell using Hermetic Astrology, the following modifiers can come into play:

1) Decanic correspondences. Straightforward, I see no reason these should change.
2) Zodiacal months, which are longer due to Mars' longer year. Straightforward.
3) Zodiacal correspondences, also straightforward. I see no reason they should change.
4) Planetary correspondences, including the day of the week. This is where I have problems. Do Mars-aligned correspondences even apply when you're actually on Mars? Mars opposes Venus, how does that affect the use of Venus-aligned correspondences when you're actually on Mars? What about correspondences with the other planets?

I'm looking for thoughts concerning #4.

[Anders]

I'd count being on Mars as giving +1 on 'Martian' spells and -1 on 'Venusian' elements. Not go overly complicated.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Anders

I'd count being on Mars as giving +1 on 'Martian' spells and -1 on 'Venusian' elements. Not go overly complicated.

<shrug>The MM's going to have to make some decisions. I don't beleive there's any published material on the subject.

If there is something in Cabal I'd expect it to be about the Iconic Mars on the Plane of Briah rather the physical planet in our Solar System. If the GM wanted to he could rule that i9t was the Iconic Mars that was the source of all "Martian" influences in Hermetic Astrology and the merely physical planet didn't do anything. So you'd use the usual charts without any modification for physical plantary location.

This is still speculation on my part because there is nothing else that I know of.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Anders

I'd count being on Mars as giving +1 on 'Martian' spells and -1 on 'Venusian' elements. Not go overly complicated.

Alternately perhaps all mortal magic depends on being in the terrestrial realm where there is a mixture of the classical elements (or decanic influences or whatever), and as soon as you leave the sphere of fire and enter the ether of the celestial realm, it all fails. Everything in the Heavens is deterministic and set by God. You simply can't cast spells on Mars (or anywhere outside the innermost edge of the lunar orbit). At least not without Divine Intervention, in which case they do whatever God wants them too.

Edit: for that matter, everything being deterministic, maybe you can't even [want] to cast spells in the Celestial Realms. If the motion of the heavens are entirely controlled by God and themselves forecast everything, you may no longer possess free will should you enter them, lest your actions somehow alter the future by changing said motions.

[Inky]

Originally Posted by Whitewings

Let me try again.

When casting a spell using Hermetic Astrology, the following modifiers can come into play:

1) Decanic correspondences. Straightforward, I see no reason these should change.
2) Zodiacal months, which are longer due to Mars' longer year. Straightforward.
3) Zodiacal correspondences, also straightforward. I see no reason they should change.
4) Planetary correspondences, including the day of the week. This is where I have problems. Do Mars-aligned correspondences even apply when you're actually on Mars? Mars opposes Venus, how does that affect the use of Venus-aligned correspondences when you're actually on Mars? What about correspondences with the other planets?

I'm looking for thoughts concerning #4.

Do any of these rules usually depend on where you are, e.g. sunrise being at a different time in Asia than in America?

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by whswhs

That looks like an after the fact rationalization. I suspect that the signs of the Zodiac did originally refer to the constellations through which the actual, visible planets were passing (after all, astrologers don't claim that the "planets" are merely formal abstract points that have nothing to do with the Sun and Moon and Mars and so on). But then astrologers didn't update as things shifted celestially. And then they came up with the business about the tropical Zodiac to explain it away, like the kind of thing that Marvel Comics used to give no-prizes for after Stan Lee wrote something silly.

Little bit of both. The zodiac was long ago divided into 12 equally sized segments that corresponded to the very much not equally sized constellations that were (before a few thousand years of precession) closest to said segment.