Can no Medical Training be Better than First Aid?

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by pawsplay

The one that provides treatment?

In what way is triage treatment?

[Celjabba]

Could we just say that basic triage use the best of physician, diagnose, or First aid ( the latest maybe at a penalty unless you hold a relevant certification/training (disaster intervention, battlefield first aid,...)
That I think would fit reality.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

Could we just say that basic triage use the best of physician, diagnose, or First aid ( the latest maybe at a penalty unless you hold a relevant certification/training (disaster intervention, battlefield first aid,...)
That I think would fit reality.

I could get behind something like "basic triage uses the best of Diagnosis +4, Physician, and First Aid -4." Of course, that's really just saying it's Diagnosis +4 - Diagnosis defaults to Physician at -4 (net +0) and defaults to First Aid at -8 (net -4). That does mean that someone with only [1] invested in First Aid isn't any better at triage than someone untrained with the same IQ*, but that doesn't sound entirely unrealistic. I could also see cause to allow you to use First Aid +0 with a Perk (representing the relevant training; my general rule of thumb is that a Perk can give up to a +4 in something extremely narrow, and I feel basic triage probably fits; it may be broad enough that only a +2 is justifiable, but for simplicity I'd just use the above).

*Actually, the above would put someone with no training at net IQ-2, due to defaulting Diagnosis at IQ-6 and then adding the +4 on top of that. Perhaps amend the above to state those options are only available to someone with points in the relevant skill, and those who are completely untrained do triage at IQ-5. Which would make even [1] in First Aid better than being untrained.

[Farmer]

Originally Posted by Varyon

I could get behind something like "basic triage uses the best of Diagnosis +4, Physician, and First Aid -4." Of course, that's really just saying it's Diagnosis +4 - Diagnosis defaults to Physician at -4 (net +0) and defaults to First Aid at -8 (net -4). That does mean that someone with only [1] invested in First Aid isn't any better at triage than someone untrained with the same IQ*, but that doesn't sound entirely unrealistic. I could also see cause to allow you to use First Aid +0 with a Perk (representing the relevant training; my general rule of thumb is that a Perk can give up to a +4 in something extremely narrow, and I feel basic triage probably fits; it may be broad enough that only a +2 is justifiable, but for simplicity I'd just use the above).

*Actually, the above would put someone with no training at net IQ-2, due to defaulting Diagnosis at IQ-6 and then adding the +4 on top of that. Perhaps amend the above to state those options are only available to someone with points in the relevant skill, and those who are completely untrained do triage at IQ-5. Which would make even [1] in First Aid better than being untrained.

That actually works really well, I think. I'm not sure on the Perk, but for the rest the way that all ties into the existing defaults works nicely.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Farmer

That actually works really well, I think. I'm not sure on the Perk, but for the rest the way that all ties into the existing defaults works nicely.

Arguably, a cleaner way to phrase it might be something like "Triage uses Diagnosis. A character who is trained in Diagnosis, First Aid, and/or Physician gets a +4 for basic triage."

As for the Perk, consider if basic triage would be limited enough to qualify for the One Task Wonder Perk (which lets you do a single task with an IQ/H skill at IQ+0). If so, you can think of it as that, but using First Aid instead of IQ. If not, it's probably too broad for that, and you may want to reduce the bonus to +2 (so that you're at net First Aid -2).

[pawsplay]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

Could we just say that basic triage use the best of physician, diagnose, or First aid ( the latest maybe at a penalty unless you hold a relevant certification/training (disaster intervention, battlefield first aid,...)
That I think would fit reality.

That really depends on the setting. On the battlefield, it's likely "bullet holes" or "no bullet holes," which isn't a skill at all.

In a more controlled setting, triage offers screening, not diagnosis.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by pawsplay

That really depends on the setting. On the battlefield, it's likely "bullet holes" or "no bullet holes," which isn't a skill at all.

In a more controlled setting, triage offers screening, not diagnosis.

Pretty certain battlefield triage involves checking where the bullet entered and where it exited (if it did) as well as what related symptoms the victim is showing (to try to figure out what damage the bullet caused), and determining from that which category they fit in (needs immediate help, can wait while more serious cases are treated, or can't be saved). That's going to require skill to determine if the bullet likely passed through a kidney or not, if that face wound looks worse than it is, etc. And, of course, bullet wounds aren't the only thing that happens on the battlefield - stabbing wounds, blunt force trauma, overpressure, burns, gas exposure, asphyxiation, drowning, shrapnel, bites, twisted limbs/extremities, severed bits, etc are all things a battlefield medic may have to contend with.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Pretty certain battlefield triage involves checking where the bullet entered and where it exited (if it did) as well as what related symptoms the victim is showing (to try to figure out what damage the bullet caused), and determining from that which category they fit in (needs immediate help, can wait while more serious cases are treated, or can't be saved). That's going to require skill to determine if the bullet likely passed through a kidney or not, if that face wound looks worse than it is, etc. And, of course, bullet wounds aren't the only thing that happens on the battlefield - stabbing wounds, blunt force trauma, overpressure, burns, gas exposure, asphyxiation, drowning, shrapnel, bites, twisted limbs/extremities, severed bits, etc are all things a battlefield medic may have to contend with.

That's what I had in mind :)

I first took first aid courses about 35 years ago.
Back then they were rather long (40 hours ? ) and covered a lot, such as all kind of bandaging, stretcher use, ... most of it unnecessary for a basic first aid course, I definitively agree with the current policy to give shorter basic training to far more peoples.
I also took the various red cross volunteer courses up to the 'ambulance escort" one (which I did not got certified at, as it required a driving licence :( ) , and I served as a volunteer for several years.
Mostly at sport events and big crowd events, there were no serious disaster in the area during that time, thankfully. Still, I got to see (and help treat) some unpleasant stuff, but again thankfully nothing fatal (one CPR).

Anyway, I got more stretcher training (including the fun stuff like getting a stretcher out of a ravine with ropes, ...), more bandaging training, radio use, crowd control, safety, ... and a lesson on basic disaster triage.
I can't remember if it was during the basic course or one of the advanced one.

That was the primary triage assuming a multi-casualties event, iirc the (unlikely) scenario was "an airliner crash at low speed onto the cathedral during Sunday Mass. You are one of the first on the spot, there are casualties everywhere, qualified personal aren't there yet." The annual exercise were more credible : bus or train crash, crowded place collapsing,...

If I remember, this primary triage went something like (assuming crowd control and securing the area is otherwise handled):
Go as fast as possible from casualties to casualties, sorting them in 4 categories :
> Is the casualty walking : triage Green (can wait), direct them toward a secure area.
> obvious deadly injuries : torso bisected, decapitation, ... or unconscious and not breathing (after clearing the airway) : triage Black (presumed death)
> Triage Red (need immediate care) : if possible assign someone to watch over, direct medical care to them first once it arrive.
-Severe (arterial, pumping) bleeding : stop bleeding if possible
-Unconscious but breathing : move to recovery position if on their back
-Severe respiratory distress : no action, but immediate priority for medical care
> triage yellow (urgent) : everyone else : injured but stable breathing.

I think ... it was a long time ago. I probably forgot lots of details and am making mistakes here..

So this first-stage triage was a mix of observation, basic first aid and some basic assessment.
Qualified personal (physician, nurse) would then screen each victim more precisely and decide which treatment is needed immediately, who require immediate evac, ... that part is second-stage triage and I think involve (basic) diagnostic.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by acrosome

Triage isn't treatment, it's patient categorization in situations where you have so many patients that you can't treat everyone at once.

1. Those who need care NOW or they will die.
2. Those who need care but can wait a bit.
3. Those who will probably die no matter what you do.

Three categories, thus "Triage". They get treated in that order. Different nations and groups call these categories by different names, and some add a fourth, but that's the basics.

Just a nitpick, but the similarity of triage and three/tri- is coincidental. It actually comes from the Latin word for "to grind" (as in grinding as a means of separating the bran from the endosperm when processing wheat, which led to the French trier meaning to select or separate) and is related to trite and titrate.