Post-Apo : Expired Medication & Food ?

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

Agreed. This thread provoked me to check the dates on my spices -- I don't have a strong sense of smell -- and I quirked my lip at seeing that the expiration dates on both my large jar of Mrs Dash and the thyme were in 2019. Out they went.

Just as a note of cultural change, when I was a kid in the fifties and early sixties, we had a number of spice containers—but they were kept in a small cupboard directly above the stove, where they were exposed to heat by convection. They stayed there for years; I don't think my mother ever used them. I can't imagine that they had any flavor left by the time I was aware of them.

I have around three dozen spices, but they're in a cupboard on the opposite wall of the kitchen, above neither stove, microwave, or sink. And I have to restock the more frequently used once more than annually. I go through lots of black pepper, California chili, cumin, ginger, and onion powder . . .

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

Agreed. This thread provoked me to check the dates on my spices.

If you've got space for them you can keep more delicate spices alive for longer by storing them in an airtight container in the refrigerator or freezer. Same for tea, coffee, etc. Freezer bags don't count as airtight for long-term storage, but a tightly closed screw-top glass or metal jar does.

Small glass or metal jars with metal screw-top lids are the best for storing herbs and spices, but pill bottles also work reasonably well even if they look more like you're running a drug den than a kitchen. Thin plastic jars with plastic screw-top lids are only good if they're good at excluding oxygen, which can permeate some thin plastics. Any container with a perforated lid is suspect. It's better if the perforated bits can be tightly covered with a lid, however, like the metal space tins with plastic tops.

With anything that depends on essential oils or other volatile compounds for its goodness, you've effectively got a half life from freshly prepared to ancient finds at the back of grandma's pantry. You can slow down the oxidation and sublimation processes with cold, oxygen exclusion and reducing surface area.

The last trick is why really fussy cooks just keep whole spices on hand and grind them as needed. Depending on the spice, whole spices might have double or triple the useful lifespan of ground spices.

It also occurs to me that old-fashioned druggists' jars were probably pretty well designed to keep ingredients fresh while still offering ease of access.

[The Colonel]

Originally Posted by pawsplay

Stuff in cans could theoretically last a long time. However, after just a few years, the material used to line the cans will start to break down. At first, this will be unappetizing, gradually becoming gross. At some point, the food will be tainted by decomposed plastics and resins. If at any point, the decay penetrates the coasting and reaches the metal, the product will become swiftly toxic and unappealing.

Things in glass jars might do a little better, if they have really, really good lids.

Do we all recall the story of the shipload of cans from the American Civil war that sank in the Mississippi? The ones they dredged up a century later and were sent for lab analysis? Apparently the contents were proclaimed (microbiologically at least) safe to eat, but not particularly appetising. Of course, being military rations from the 1860s, they may not have been particularly appetising when they went into the tin. No record of surviving (or original) food value or any risk of lead contamination.

Oldest food I've seen eaten was when Steve1989MREInfo got into a British Army iron ration from the Boer War on YouTube. If memory serves, he tried the cocoa like product, but the smell caused by attempting to prepare the "meat" end nearly made him evacuate his house. Again, we've not seen records of how this material was when originally issued.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

Do we all recall the story of the shipload of cans from the American Civil war that sank in the Mississippi? The ones they dredged up a century later and were sent for lab analysis? d.

We ought to. It's in High Tech and has already been referred to in this thread.

If you moved your Apocalypse early enough some survivor might find something like that but from what I know of the history of canned food it would probably be a 20 to 50 lb can (probably beef) intended for a mess kitchen of some kind. Individual cans came somewhat later. US forces didn't see them until WWI.

[The Colonel]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

We ought to. It's in High Tech and has already been referred to in this thread.

If you moved your Apocalypse early enough some survivor might find something like that but from what I know of the history of canned food it would probably be a 20 to 50 lb can (probably beef) intended for a mess kitchen of some kind. Individual cans came somewhat later. US forces didn't see them until WWI.

Missed the reference in thread - the nearest I could find was the amphorae being dredged up. My point was that if primitive canning methods could produce material that was edible after a century, modern ones might do even better.

Come to thing of it, a good dose of fast neutrons might also re-sterilise a lot of things and extend shelf life considerably mightn't it?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

Come to thing of it, a good dose of fast neutrons might also re-sterilise a lot of things and extend shelf life considerably mightn't it?

You really want ionizing radiation (food irradiation generally uses gamma rays, x-rays, or electron beams), not neutrons; leaving your food slightly radioactive is less than ideal.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Anthony

You really want ionizing radiation (food irradiation generally uses gamma rays, x-rays, or electron beams), not neutrons; leaving your food slightly radioactive is less than ideal.

I believe the gentleman may have ben thinking (perhaps humorously) of near misses during a classical nuclear apocalypse. I doubt that would work out to sterilize food without blowing it up. It would provide the gamma rays. Maybe some soft X-rays from secondary radiation too.

I think the main threat of ongoing radiation might be from metal cans of C rations. Again classically this is what underground bomb shelters would be stocked with but I believe MREs are packaged non-metallically.

While the US army did issue leftover hardtack from the Civil War to troops during the Spanish-American War I think it's actually been longer than that (in relative terms) since C Rations stopped being produced.

[The Colonel]

Originally Posted by Anthony

You really want ionizing radiation (food irradiation generally uses gamma rays, x-rays, or electron beams), not neutrons; leaving your food slightly radioactive is less than ideal.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

I believe the gentleman may have ben thinking (perhaps humorously) of near misses during a classical nuclear apocalypse. I doubt that would work out to sterilize food without blowing it up. It would provide the gamma rays. Maybe some soft X-rays from secondary radiation too.

Yes indeed, I was reminded of the food in the Fallout games - still approximately edible and only "slightly" radioactive after a couple of centuries. I am aware that that is far from the only thing wrong with the Fallout setting.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

Do we all recall the story of the shipload of cans from the American Civil war that sank in the Mississippi?

There might be other wrecks that I've missed, but the one steamboat wreck that I know yielded canned goods was the Arabia, which sank in the Missouri river in 1856.

It yielded jars of canned fruits and pickles that are still edible, but the mud that buried the wreck also did a great job of excluding light and oxygen and keeping the ambient temperature cool and stable. Perfect for preservation, if on the warm side.

Allegedly, an artifact conservator ate one of the pickles and found it to be perfectly fresh 150 years later.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Allegedly, an artifact conservator ate one of the pickles and found it to be perfectly fresh 150 years later.

It probably helps that a lot of the flavor of pickle comes from salt and vinegar, neither of which will do a lot in a mere 150 years, and if there's additional flavors from herbs, they're dissolved in vinegar which will prevent any volatiles from dissipating, they have to actually break down.