[Magic] Loophole in the “Tickle” spell

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

For(b) even in the 4e version the Item is specified to be "Always on". There is never an energy cost for Always On Items.

So I guess that means on a failed save the target is stuck in an eternal seizure unless someone rolls them off the cushion?

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Plane

So I guess that means on a failed save the target is stuck in an eternal seizure unless someone rolls them off the cushion?

This was all simpler in the 3e version where the duration was only 1 second. There you'd sit down get "tickled" once for a second and then jump up and vow to do violence to the prankster/enchanter.

Even for the one minute Seizure of the 4e version there would have to be some chance of the convulsing target rolling off the cushion by themselves.

A very close reading of the text would have the cushion attacking when someone sat on it only. There's nothing about attacking persons continuing to sit, so it would be "one and done"..

[Varyon]

My interpretation of this situation, assuming it is indeed the case that Tickle requires Concentration for the seizure to continue (and ceases whenever the caster isn't using Concentration to keep it going), would be that an intermittent seizure (so you suffer a seizure for a few seconds, then can act normally, then suffer a seizure for a few seconds, etc) simply counts as a single Seizure, and the FP cost is assessed at the end. That way you can't just alternate on-off for a full minute and wind up dealing 30d FP to the target - you cause 1d FP, regardless of how long the seizure lasts, whether it is just one continuous minute of seizing or something that happens a second at a time. If you want the FP cost to scale with how long the character is actually seizing, divide the number of seconds the character actually spent in a seizure by 60, then multiply the 1d result by this value (round up) to determine the actual FP loss.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Varyon

My interpretation of this situation, assuming it is indeed the case that Tickle requires Concentration for the seizure to continue (and ceases whenever the caster isn't using Concentration to keep it going),.

It doesn't say that. It only says (requires concentration) in the duration section
Concentration and Maintenance is defined on p.238 of Characters or p.10 of Magic.

[WingedKagouti]

Originally Posted by Varyon

My interpretation of this situation, assuming it is indeed the case that Tickle requires Concentration for the seizure to continue (and ceases whenever the caster isn't using Concentration to keep it going), would be that an intermittent seizure (so you suffer a seizure for a few seconds, then can act normally, then suffer a seizure for a few seconds, etc) simply counts as a single Seizure, and the FP cost is assessed at the end. That way you can't just alternate on-off for a full minute and wind up dealing 30d FP to the target - you cause 1d FP, regardless of how long the seizure lasts, whether it is just one continuous minute of seizing or something that happens a second at a time. If you want the FP cost to scale with how long the character is actually seizing, divide the number of seconds the character actually spent in a seizure by 60, then multiply the 1d result by this value (round up) to determine the actual FP loss.

Afflicion based seizures last for at least a minute and only cause 1d6 fatigue damage (even if it lasts for 20 minutes), so a seizure lasting only a few seconds should certainly not be as draining as one lasting a minute or more.

But overall, this spell seems to be yet another victim of a hasty writing/editing process for the book.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

It doesn't say that. It only says (requires concentration) in the duration section
Concentration and Maintenance is defined on p.238 of Characters or p.10 of Magic.

What happens if you don't Concentrate?

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

It doesn't say that. It only says (requires concentration) in the duration section
Concentration and Maintenance is defined on p.238 of Characters or p.10 of Magic.

Actually, it doesn't. It says (requires concentration) in the cost section, which was one of the points in my earlier post. Tickle is unique among the spells presented in Magic in saying (requires concentration) as part of the cost.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

What happens if you don't Concentrate?

Since it says (requires concentration) as part of the cost, the spell's cost is no longer being met. Presumably, the spell then ceases, possibly with a penalty for prematurely ending the spell.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

What happens if you don't Concentrate?

With usual "Requires Concentration" Spells like Levitation the spell effect you are concentrating on stops (like the Levitated object stops moving) but the spell doesn't end (the Levitated object just hangs there) until the duration expires.

This is probably the source of the (rather complicated) interpretation of a stop and go spell. My problem is that it's not clear what you're Concentrating on. Do you have to say "tickle, tickle tickle!" the whole Duration or are you having to instruct the spell to go for the skin beneath the underarm?

<throws hands up>I'm not going to struggle with deciphering the 4e RAW any more. My House Rule would be to go back to the 1 second Duration and possibly disallow Maintenance as well.

[ehrbar]

Originally Posted by VIVIT

Incapacitating conditions are pretty severe in the first place, so this may not be quite as unbalancing as it seems, but it still feels kind of abusive. And while it's trivial to say, "No, it doesn't work that way," it's not so trivial say how it's supposed to work instead. How long does a seizure have to be before it fatigues you? Do shorter seizures inflict less fatigue? Do longer seizures inflict more fatigue? The seizure condition as described in Basic Set doesn't seem to be intended for a maintainable, variable-length effect like this.

So, while it is not specified in the Affliction rules under Hazards in the Basic Set, over on the Fright Check table on p.361, a seizure lasts 1d minutes and costs 1d fatigue, for an average rate of 1 fatigue/minute.

Accordingly, for the Tickle spell rules I'm planning on adding to my "Unofficial Errata", ending concentration on the spell terminates it entirely (on the logic that it's, uniquely, a cost that isn't being paid), and that the FP loss is 1 per full minute. Which seems to me in both parts to leave the spell useful while not abusable.