Delvers to Go party of five

[restlessgriffin]

If you were building a five member adventuring team using just the characters in Delvers to Go, which five would you choose? Assume this is for a well rounded campaign involving lots of dungeon delving, outdoor wilderness adventures, road trips, traps and locked rooms, in town excursions, travel on river/across lakes and battling everything from brigands and trolls, to demons, dragons and the undead.

My start would be:

Llandor the Gray, elf Scout
Puddin' Noddington, gnome Thief
Sir Yvor Gryffyn, human Knight
Sister Miriam Suntemple, human Cleric
Uncle Seamus, human Wizard

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

If you were building a five member adventuring team using just the characters in Delvers to Go, which five would you choose?

Hmmm. I would want traps capability, which Llandor can handle with Jag's help (Keen Vision). Jag can also handle selling loot for a good price and mind-controlling monsters. They're both in.

I want a protector. Sir Yvor has good damage and Sacrificial Parry and Shield Wall training. He's in to keep the others alive.

I need a healer in order to finish dungeons in hours instead of weeks. Time is money. Sister Miriam is in.

Uncle Seamus's combination of Intuition, Shape Earth (for digging pit traps and blocking doors), Haste (speed everybody up and keep them safe), Great Haste (increase Yvor's or Llandor's offensive output), and Complex Illusion (for ruses and tricks)... this appeals to me more than Zephyra's body control spells or Aelin's poorly-chosen spell list. I'm tempted by Miao Miao for another frontline fighter but I think Seamus brings more to the table. Besides, I find Miao Miao's dialogue annoying. Uncle Seamus is in.

[tbone]

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

Llandor the Gray, elf Scout
Puddin' Noddington, gnome Thief
Sir Yvor Gryffyn, human Knight
Sister Miriam Suntemple, human Cleric
Uncle Seamus, human Wizard

Hard to argue with that lineup. It has the classic four FRPG archetypes: fighter, cleric, wizard, thief. For a fifth PC, my first wish would be for another fighter. A scout fits the bill with some decent melee fighting ability, and adds ranged fighting prowess and outdoor expertise.

I think they'll do well.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by tbone

Hard to argue with that lineup. It has the classic four FRPG archetypes: fighter, cleric, wizard, thief. For a fifth PC, my first wish would be for another fighter. A scout fits the bill with some decent melee fighting ability, and adds ranged fighting prowess and outdoor expertise.

I think they'll do well.

A radically different but maybe entertaining party:

Argua for smashing
Miao Miao for slashing
Sir Yvor for protecting
Llandor for shooting
Sister Miriam for patching up the fools afterwards

At first Argua will probably be in charge of setting off all the traps that Llandor can't detect, with Miriam patching Argua up afterwards. Argua is tough enough that even a Wall Scyther (2d+3 cut to the leg or neck) is unlikely to cripple her and almost certainly not going to sever a limb. Llandor may want to invest in Acute Vision ASAP but even his starting Per-based Traps-15 isn't awful, good enough to cut the damage Argua takes approximately in half.

In a pure dungeon crawl I imagine this crew would do about as well as either of the other two parties posted so far. However, they'd go through the dungeon a lot faster, at the pace of an infantry squad on a house-clearing operation, finishing a typical dungeon in seconds or minutes because they gain nothing much from slowing down and being clever. At the most they'd scatter some caltrops along key lines of retreat in case nasty monsters are lurking (note: everybody should wear DR 2-4 footwear to make them immune to their own caltrops) but for the most part maximum ferocity is their motto. With four fighters they have more firepower than a peshkali, and more defensive depth too.

[restlessgriffin]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

A radically different but maybe entertaining party:

Argua for smashing
Miao Miao for slashing
Sir Yvor for protecting
Llandor for shooting
Sister Miriam for patching up the fools afterwards

Entertaining, yes. Tough definitely. Well rounded, I don't think so. Maybe I'm missing some errata but I show Llandor as only having Traps-13. They also have no mage so they will be at a major disadvantage against wizards and magical traps and creatures. Sister Miriam does at least have Resist Fire so they won't get immediately blasted by fire spells.

I see a disadvantage filled future for Argua - eve, fingers, limbs. The team will make short work of the undead brute squad, though!

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

Entertaining, yes. Tough definitely. Well rounded, I don't think so. Maybe I'm missing some errata but I show Llandor as only having Traps-13. They also have no mage so they will be at a major disadvantage against wizards and magical traps and creatures. Sister Miriam does at least have Resist Fire so they won't get immediately blasted by fire spells.

I see a disadvantage filled future for Argua - eve, fingers, limbs. The team will make short work of the undead brute squad, though!

Llandor has Traps-13 (IQ +2) for purposes of setting traps, but detection is usually Per-based giving him Traps-16 for detection, ditto Dex-based disarming. With 10 points in Acute Vision, detection will spike to Traps-21, enough to keep Argua alive and unmaimed fairly effectively, as well as Pudding would but without her downsides like post-combat shakes.

As for "major disadvantage against wizards and magical traps and creatures"... maybe. "Arrow to the brain" is a decent Counterspell equivalent, and I think this group would do fine in any of the DFRPG adventures I've read so far[1]. (Miriam ought to pick up Dispel Magic sooner or later just in case though, e.g. for Missile Shield.) But note that I am not claiming this group is "well-rounded" per se. I do think they would be fun and would do fairly well in a well-rounded campaign; their real nemesis is not going to be evil wizards but rather situations that a wizard would help with, like a Helpful Climbing Wall (Walk On Air would counter, as would good climbing tools and high DX) or a trapped lever (Apportation would counter, as would a grappling hook and rope).

I feel that a lot of the fun would come from trying to meet challenges the hard way, with grappling hooks and disguises and bribes, etc., instead of magic. It must also be acknowledged though that none of the Delvers To Go has a particularly great spell list anyway: Llandor can get Walk On Air or Concussion as approximately as cheaply as Uncle Seamus or Zephyra can.

[1] E.g. in I Smell A Rat, probably what happens is that some of the PCs take 3d-1 damage from the Evil Runes in the hallway, but they still kick down the door, kill the peshkali, and heal up. A party with a wizard would probably pretty much do the same thing unless they tunnel through the wall instead, which Aelin, Seamus and Zephyra can't do anyway.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

Llandor the Gray, elf Scout
Puddin' Noddington, gnome Thief
Sir Yvor Gryffyn, human Knight
Sister Miriam Suntemple, human Cleric
Uncle Seamus, human Wizard

Only one strong melee seems dangerous, but maybe Suntemple can tank?

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

Argua for smashing
Miao Miao for slashing
Sir Yvor for protecting
Llandor for shooting
Sister Miriam for patching up the fools afterwards

This is probably safer unless the dungeon has stuff that absolutely needs a thief or wizzo. IME there is often stuff where you would regret not having a thief or wizzo, as well as stuff where if you lack strong melee coverage everyone dies.

I can't find the thread but at some point Kromm basically said "if you're playing hard dungeons half the party should be knights and barbarians, and spare spaces should fill cleric first, then wiz and thief, then other templates."

[benz72]

I really think that party composition comes down to baseline assumptions about adventure content.
If most of the screen time for an adventure is swinging weapons then lots of fighters makes sense. I tend to not run adventures like that. A party full of 'only fighters' would effectively be bodyguards for the other PCs who are researching, socializing, engaging in commerce, moving through hostile terrain, solving puzzles, planning how to complete a task with a minimum of violence, investigating mysteries, negotiating with NPCs, &c.
My preferred method is to strongly suggest well rounded PCs who can fight AND do something else, or perhaps do something else AND fight.
Kromm talks about Everyman skills, I tend to think of this more like Every-adventurer capabilities. There should not be ANY PC in my games without a social skill, a primary combat skill and secondary or unarmed one, some stealth, a way to get information, some useful secondary skill and an ability to travel effectively... otherwise it is just an invitation to fail during high stakes adventures.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by martinl

Only one strong melee seems dangerous, but maybe Suntemple can tank?

Never ask the cleric to tank unless there's another cleric around to heal them (or healing potions). Self-surgery is exceedingly difficult in DFRPG: one little blow for 8 HP or so and you can basically kiss all of Miriam's magical healing goodbye for at least a couple of days, maybe a week. With a -8 penalty, she needs a 6 or better to cast Great Healing or Major Healing on herself; a 7 or better to even cast Minor Healing or Stop Bleeding! You'd be better off asking Uncle Seamus to put on a 5 lb. heavy cloak to increase his Parry to 15, and then ask him to tank. Blink-16 and DR 2 makes him relatively safe overall.

Llandor could pull out a staff and tank too (Parry-14 + DB) but you want him shooting things instead.

Pudding is pretty worthless as a tank, which is why I would generally replace her with a Wizard who takes spells like Arcane Eye, Phantom, Initiative, and a Quirk point in Traps (so that even the Complex Illusions that you send ahead to scout can be made adept at spotting traps). In Delvers To Go that's not possible, but I would still rather have Jag Fairchild boost Llandor's Traps by +5 with Keen Vision, and then have Jag tank by proxy (i.e. by mind-controlling enemies). It's not perfect but it's better than what Pudding has to offer.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

A radically different but maybe entertaining party:

Argua for smashing
Miao Miao for slashing
Sir Yvor for protecting
Llandor for shooting
Sister Miriam for patching up the fools afterwards

It's a bit overly focused; there aren't a lot of problems you can solve with four thugs that can't be solved with three thugs. I'd probably drop one of the first three and add a wizard (IME thieves are only important of the GM spends a bunch of effort making sure the thief is important).