Build-A-Setting #1: Orcs, Dwarves, and Elves in the 21st Century

[Emerikol]

I think "real" racism as opposed to what we have now which is more the oppression of variants of the same race would be true. I also think the racism that we have nowadays would be far less likely to be as strong. Human racists would hate orcs or elves rather than black or hispanic people, etc...

Some questions you should ask are
1. Have all the races been around from the beginning? If not how and when did the non-original races appear.
2. Are religions across the races radically different or is faith a shared ideal? You might for example have some claim that non-humans are not going to heaven because they don't really have a soul. Etc... This is a dark take so I don't know what you are wanting to do. And I'm picking on the humans. The elves or dwarves could have their own exclusive religious concepts.
3. What about longevity? Are elves long lived as they are traditionally? If so how does this affect knowledge of history?
4. Is magic industrial? Can anyone do it or do you need to be born gifted?
5. What about space and the planets? If they are as we know them how does magic affect space travel?
6. What about magic in the use of law enforcement? Can you seek a murderer using magic and force him to confess?

[thrash]

Originally Posted by Inky

I tried to imagine how Vampire: the Masquerade fitted into this scenario, since it would certainly be a terrible way to go about it if you were a vampire wanting to improve your image.

Perhaps this (and Twilight) were subtle manipulations. Vampires, if they exist, can afford to play a long game. After all, being dismissive or condescending is better in the short term than breaking out the pitchforks and torches. By the time the masses realize they've been had, it's too late.

"It's a great idea, Remus, but who is going to read something so utterly depressing? You'll be lucky to sell twenty copies."
"We're going to put lots of sex in."
"...OK, that could work."

"And, and, and -- we'll make all the important people in history be fangers and skinbrothers, because that's sooo coooool..."
"Gopod damn it, Moon-moon!"

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Honestly I'm inclined to dispense with the dwarves in favour of rather less...stocky delvers. Of all of them, the dwarves update most awkwardly, while, say, goblins and even halflings do better.

Dwarves tend to spend a lot of time indoors, they're fatter than everyone else, they tend to rely on technology rather than magic ... I'd say they update to the modern world pretty well.

I think goblins fit into the modern world better than orcs, but I suppose challenge breeds creativity.

Originally Posted by FF_Ninja

That said, I expect there was significant xenophobia among the races on virtue of the contrasted culture, biology, and heritage. I expect it got quite nasty at times over the millennia, "human" nature being an inherently awful thing as often as the best surfaces.

I like the idea of racial tensions and conflicts as much as I do political, cultural, and technological ones. Much of what has been common history for man (slave trades, oppression, civil rights issues, nationalism) would apply just as well of you incorporated metahumans - though there is plenty of room for issues unique to a particular species.

I mean, if we want to get dark and gritty in that direction, a 21st century with Orcs, Dwarves, Elves, and presumably Humans has a 19th and 20th century in which a single culture or group of related cultures conquers and dominates all of the others.

Alternatively, races can be worked into cultures. Perhaps the "Dominant" culture is an empire where elves rule over orcs. Or a recent "social experiment" involving humans and dwarves.

*********************************************
Here's a quick setting sketch:

In the old days, the humans grew the food, the dwarves made the stuff, the orcs fought the wars, and the elves administered it all (and fought wars).

Now that's all been turned on its head.

There are too many humans and not enough dwarves. Excess population pours in from the farmland, their jobs replaced with machines, as the demand to make more and more machines far outstrips the number of dwarves. The dwarves are frustrated at teaching humans how to work machines, while the humans chafe at both the structural and in-born advantages the dwarves have over them.

The orcs have had a terrible last few centuries. The invention of the gun greatly diminished the power of their individual strength, and the new lethality of the warfare slaughtered them en-mass. Still, Orcs can recover from such population loss quickly, and with the booming food supply, their numbers have recovered... but the old traditions are garbled, and with real wars held back by politics and the threat of a nuclear disaster, they must make their way into the cities, trying to find employment.

The elves also had a rough time of it: popular movements have undermined their legitimacy, evicted them from power, and in some cases purged them out of civilizations. Now they must walk a strange line, in which they leverage their wealth and ages of experience, without drawing the ire of the "lesser races" again.

So the dwarves win, right? Well its all a matter of perspective. Everyone is jealous of them now, and the things that have always set them apart are becoming downright common, in the hands of humans, orcs, and even the occasional disenfranchised elf. Their traditions and customs are under immense pressure.

And that's just the host culture... things turned out different in other places...

[FF_Ninja]

Originally Posted by Emerikol

Some questions you should ask are
1. Have all the races been around from the beginning? If not how and when did the non-original races appear.
2. Are religions across the races radically different or is faith a shared ideal? You might for example have some claim that non-humans are not going to heaven because they don't really have a soul. Etc... This is a dark take so I don't know what you are wanting to do. And I'm picking on the humans. The elves or dwarves could have their own exclusive religious concepts.
3. What about longevity? Are elves long lived as they are traditionally? If so how does this affect knowledge of history?
4. Is magic industrial? Can anyone do it or do you need to be born gifted?
5. What about space and the planets? If they are as we know them how does magic affect space travel?
6. What about magic in the use of law enforcement? Can you seek a murderer using magic and force him to confess?

I was waiting for something like this. I enjoy questions that stand in as a sort of creative writing prompt.

/cracks knuckles

1) The races have indeed been around since the beginning. However, this begs an important question to the origin of the species - of all species. Here's my take on it:

Elves (originally, the "Tarkein" or "First People) were brought into existence first by a powerful divine of some sort (we'll call him "Knife-Ear God" for abstraction). Formed using his own divine nature as a template, they were granted extraordinary abilities (by human standards) and handed the planet on a silver platter to both rule and administer. This would have happened hundreds of thousands of years prior to present; ancient Tarkein were functionally immortal.


The several brothers and sisters of Knife-Ear God decided that his creation wasn't complete without their influence (or were just really bored), and so added special touches to the world, all designed after their own character and form: The Dorn, the Kleinar, the Koloss, the Mer, the Fae, and the Kinae.

• The Dorn (later, the Dwarves) were made stocky, beard-embearded, and hearty. They were given all land that the sky did not touch as their domain, and were to last the eons in much the same way rock hewn of earth stands the test of time.
• The Kleinar (later, the Halflings) were created small of stature but great of spirit. They were given wanderlust, to seek inevitable adventure and craft unforgettable epics.
• The Koloss (later, the Giants) resembled the enormous mountains they inhabited. The smallest of towered over all mortal creatures. They were slow of consideration and slower of action, but resolute in their immense strength.
• The Mer (later to be considered as Merfolk) dwelled in the unfathomable depths of the world's greatest seas and oceans. Sinewy and elegant, they seemed to portray the nature of the sea even as they flowed uninhibited on the land.
• The Fae (true to their name to this day) were formed less of a cohesive mindset and more through mischief and wildness than the others. Their physical form resembled more of the will and emotions they emulated, as opposed to a particular domain or habitat. As such, they were pervasive everywhere, and their forms were uninhibited and limitless.
• The Kinae were the last of the Prime Races to be brought about. The divine who created them was the youngest sibling of the Knife-Eared God, and envied his brother in all things. The Kinae themselves were almost carbon copies of the Tarkein, but embodied a much wilder, more ambitious spirit.

The races lived in relative peace and harmony for centuries. They were functionally immortal (made in the image of their divine creators) and did not age significantly after a period of time, but (unlike all of the other creations) did not have drive or ability to procreate.


Eventually, a schism formed between the Knife-Eared God (we'll disambiguate and call him "Aeiril") and his younger brother (let's call him "Kaniel"). Kaniel detested being second before his brother in all things, and this jealousy projected onto the Kinae. Squabbling and conflict grew between the Tarkein and the Kinae over centuries.


At the peak of the schism between the brothers, Kaniel committed an unparalleled act of betrayal and aggression by attempting to murder his brother. Though he ultimately failed, this act destroyed the peace and harmony both in the heavens and in the earth. Civil war erupted across the world as the Kinae and Tarkein - in mirrored manifestation of the wills of their creators - threw themselves at each other in a bloody war that drew in the other Prime Races and eventually brought the world to the brink of ruin.


Typically more of a hands-off type of father, Ikune (our "All-Father" in this situation, and the First God) intervened before things could get any more out of hand - first in the Heavens, and then in the Earth. He chastised the entire pantheon for participating in the celestial civil war, but ended up exiling Kaniel from the pantheon by shunting him into another plane of existence (which was created, in an act of final love and mercy, to be his own personal domain).


On Earth, the races had fought endlessly - partly driven by the wills of their creators, but also because no one could actually die. In a master stroke, "perfect" immortality was rescinded for all of the Prime Races. Most of their numbers were actually cut to pieces before they realized the impact of the Ikune's curse. Moreover, the impact of the Prime Sin (Kaniel's betrayal) had cascaded and infused the world to its very core, radically altering the physiological trajectory of the Prime Races.

I'll work on this more, but I just realized I'm late for work crap crap crap CRAP CRAP

Edit: Okay, okay. Let's try to finish this up.

Anyway, the long and short of it: Prime Sin cursed every mortal species involved. The Prime Races had already lost their immortality (though most retained their incredible longevity and the Tarkein very specifically), but most of them went through physological and environmental changes, or were cursed to adhere to specific requirements or natures.

• The Dorn were inflicted with a geolust, compelled to delve further and further into the depths of the ground.
• The Kleinar became insular; their wanderlust not sated but curtailed.
• The Koloss lost themselves to the most remote regions, warring with their neighbors and being given over to solitude.
• The Mer were cast deeper into the watery depths, unable to set foot on land.
• The Fae (perhaps least affected of all) retreated into their own realm to watch and observe.
• The Kinae, cursed most of all other Prime Races, were given over to their anger and hatred. They were destined to roam the lands, never calling one place home for any period of time, and doomed to conflict with everyone they encountered - even their own kin. Their immortality gone, replaced by a prolific need to reproduce and conquer. They were stripped of their divine-granted name, known henceforth only as Orken - or Orcs.

A'ight. More later.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Emerikol

I think "real" racism as opposed to what we have now which is more the oppression of variants of the same race would be true. I also think the racism that we have nowadays would be far less likely to be as strong. Human racists would hate orcs or elves rather than black or hispanic people, etc...

I seriously doubt it. Humanity has always had this fear of "the Other" and that would extend to their own kind as well as other actual races...especially if fertile interbreeding is possible.

Heck, each of the races may have their own "racism".

For example, a High elf looking at Drow was even lower than the lowest human ie "I'd rather mate with a pale Human than be in the same area as those near albino freaks that call themselves 'elves'." (My Drow look like the Gliders of Elfquest)

Heck, the night elves and blood elves of Warcraft don't exactly see eye to eye and tend to regard the other with some degree of contempt.

Orc tribes may be so competitive that they see other clans as "races" treating some with total contempt to the point that wiping them out sounds like a great idea.

[Emerikol]

Originally Posted by maximara

I seriously doubt it. Humanity has always had this fear of "the Other" and that would extend to their own kind as well as other actual races...especially if fertile interbreeding is possible.

Heck, each of the races may have their own "racism".

For example, a High elf looking at Drow was even lower than the lowest human ie "I'd rather mate with a pale Human than be in the same area as those near albino freaks that call themselves 'elves'." (My Drow look like the Gliders of Elfquest)

Heck, the night elves and blood elves of Warcraft don't exactly see eye to eye and tend to regard the other with some degree of contempt.

Orc tribes may be so competitive that they see other clans as "races" treating some with total contempt to the point that wiping them out sounds like a great idea.

Well it's hard to argue a fantasy universe of course. It could be however you see it happening.

My own experience though of racism is that the more different people are from each other the more likely they are to be seen as "the other". I also think part of it would depend on if the races are mixed together or have their own domains. If they have their own domains then of course racism would prevail in each domain. If they are mixed then I think the incidence of racism between humans would diminish especially if there are factors that make elves or dwarves more different than just appearance. Elves being super long lived for example could really make other races envious.

[Opellulo]

"Instituted Racism" is a pretty modern invention: created to justify colonization and then exploited by industrialization and capitalism. Ancient societies weren't racist in the modern sense, the focus was on religious beliefs, belonging or any other sense of "community" that did not had the negative connotation of the "Usness vs Otherness" it has today. In roman times it was citizenship, in feudalism it was fealty to the liege, nowhere skin color or facial features had the importance some people give it today.

All this to say that fantasy tropes like "all orcs are evil" or "all elves hates drows" are just lazy simplification that say more about the writer mentality than human social behavior.
To imagine a believable alternate world where different intelligent species have meaningful and believable social, economic, religious, interaction is basically to imagine a world where 2+2=5.

And no, i don't think a catholic oriented fan-fiction about German Myths written by a sexophobic philology professor is a good place to start.

[Emerikol]

Originally Posted by Opellulo

"Instituted Racism" is a pretty modern invention: created to justify colonization and then exploited by industrialization and capitalism. Ancient societies weren't racist in the modern sense, the focus was on religious beliefs, belonging or any other sense of "community" that did not had the negative connotation of the "Usness vs Otherness" it has today. In roman times it was citizenship, in feudalism it was fealty to the liege, nowhere skin color or facial features had the importance some people give it today.

All this to say that fantasy tropes like "all orcs are evil" or "all elves hates drows" are just lazy simplification that say more about the writer mentality than human social behavior.
To imagine a believable alternate world where different intelligent species have meaningful and believable social, economic, religious, interaction is basically to imagine a world where 2+2=5.

And no, i don't think a catholic oriented fan-fiction about German Myths written by a sexophobic philology professor is a good place to start.

To be honest, I don't think all of these quotes even agree with each other. It's like they are independent aphorisms. Needless to say I disagree with some of them and leave it at that.

[Inky]

http://tetsujinnollama.blogspot.com has an interesting article about racism-and-how-it-wasn't-quite-like-now in mediaeval times.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by FF_Ninja

I can see Dwarves heading some of the largest trade and craft unions - or "guilds" - across the civilized world. If one needed something built, designed, or restored, one would typically contract the local union of some sort and that's likely to be heavily infused with Dwarven blood. Every major metropolis in the western world - and quite a few other places as well - is built on their ingenuity and industriousness.

I could also see the dwarves having resisted industrialization, just as the guilds did, and for the same reasons. Dwarves could have instead come to be associated with professions that don't make things, like legal, medical, and entertainment fields, which still operate as guilds in all but name (or actually by name, in the case of the film industry).