03-23-2021, 01:20 PM | #31 | |
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Boston area
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Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue
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Here are the three possibilities for how Aid works when current ST is reduced for some reason. (1) If a spell is cast, fatigue is taken off of the Aid reserve first. (2) If fatigue arises for any other reason, it is taken off of the Aid reserve first. (3) If wounds are taken for any reason, they are taken off the Aid reserve first. Far as I know, everyone accepts (1). Skarg rejects (2), but I don't know about others. I'm the only one vocal about accepting (3) given (1) and (2). |
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03-23-2021, 02:29 PM | #32 | |
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: New England
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Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue
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A GM could just say that when aiding ST it also confers an equal amount of mana. That way, spells the subject casts use that, not fatigue, and mundane tallies against ST (fatigue and wounds) that exceed the subject's natural capacity will kill the Aided figure upon the spell's expiration. But that's definitely adding something that isn't specifically mentioned in the rules. |
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03-23-2021, 05:11 PM | #33 | ||
Join Date: May 2015
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Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue
I pretty much agree with all that hcobb wrote in that most recent post. (I can think of some fiddly edge cases about timing, but I don't want to get into that now.)
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(1) Yes. (The caster might choose to use their own ST, but almost never would.) (2) This is actually ok with me. I think it's unclear RAW, but a simple and reasonable way to do it. EDIT: But I think it's perhaps more likely that the intention is that since the spell specifically/only says it can be used to cast spells, that it doesn't let you use the spell's ST for other causes of fatigue. (3) This is the one I really don't like. I don't think Aid ST gives you a damage sponge; I think it increases your ST for 2 turns. I think a wound is physical damage that an Aid spell can indirectly help you endure for 2 turns but has no power to make vanish. Quote:
It also sounds to me like people are trying to think about Aid in a way that they think is simpler, but actually makes it more complicated. I think about it like the spell says: * Aid ST is a spell that for 2 turns, adds to your effective ST. * You can use the spell's ST to cast spells until it wears off, after which any unused ST is lost. So for the question about the more significant and common situation of normal damage, to me it seems clear that if you suffer a wound while you have an Aid ST spell going, your body takes the full damage, and the Aid ST spell just helps you survive it until the Aid spell wears off. The spell does not say it can be used to make damage to you apply to the spell and not to your body. So if I have ST 10 and Aid ST +5, and I take 4 damage, I'd write: ST 10, Aid ST +5, -4 stab When the spell wears off, I erase the "Aid ST +5", leaving: ST 10, -4 stab Last edited by Skarg; 03-23-2021 at 06:35 PM. |
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03-23-2021, 06:44 PM | #34 | |
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Boston area
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Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue
Skarg's post made me think. Here's what the text of Aid says (ITL 18):
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Also, sorry if I misrepresented you, Skarg. If I understand correctly, the 2 fatigue from berserk is, in your opinion, a debt taken whenever one goes berserk. If he goes berserk, receives Aid and comes out while the Aid is in effect, you don't count that as using up Aid ST because the debt was there before the spell was cast. Or something. No doubt I'm overthinking things. I ain't never had a player cast Aid ever. |
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03-23-2021, 09:17 PM | #35 |
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: New England
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Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue
It's really great to hear people share their thoughts about how this humble spell works. It may seem like an edge case w/berserking, and therefor kind of academic, but I've got some nasties in my game that inflict fatigue instead of wounds, and it could come up more frequently than almost never. What a great forum!
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03-24-2021, 12:14 AM | #36 | |
Join Date: May 2015
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Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue
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That's one of my lines of reasoning, which all lead me to the same conclusion for my own games. The simplest line of reasoning for me is that the spell only mentions you can use Aid ST to cast spells. It doesn't say you can use it for absorbing wounds. Seems to me the spell makes your ST attribute go up for two turns. After that, your ST attribute stops being boosted. That to me has nothing to do with making injuries vanish. And I tend to think it wouldn't have to do with non-spell types of exertion either, but I'm not bothered if my GM says he'll let non-spell fatigue use up Aid ST. (I'm just kind of bothered when it can make wounds vanish.) Wow! It can be a really, really useful spell when used in, well, many ways. (Yet another minor side reason I don't want it to be also a wound-absorbtion spell.) |
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03-24-2021, 01:34 AM | #37 |
Join Date: Jun 2019
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Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue
I'm so glad you said that, I was beginning to think I was the only one!
Most wizards were so anemic no one ever gave away a point of ST. By the end of most fights, the wizards that weren't dead or unconscious were all weaving at -3 DX for low ST. Mine didn't even waste a memory slot learning Aid.
__________________
"I'm not arguing. I'm just explaining why I'm right." |
03-24-2021, 04:14 AM | #38 |
Join Date: May 2020
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Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue
Magic is what magic is....
The rule intent is obvious that aid is for acolytes to assist other magi in creating greater magic, i.e. acting as a living ST battery. Aid is a common "job" spell and as mentioned few if any players actually take the spell and even then never use it in a tactical combat. Does anyone really think a wizard aiding another character with +3 ST and that character then has a one time buffer stopping 3 of an 8 hit blow so they only take 5 hits is a game changer? You can describe the effect anyway you want to. The Mana flares away, the aura or essence of magic dulls the hit etc etc. I personally would love to see Bill and Ted with a 10 ST attribute dragging a battleaxe around. Then try to muscle their way through a fight with aid assisted combat ST 15 swinging freely for 2 turns and absorbing 5 hits from the first blow in that time. Better yet I am going to pull this on the next adventure and watch the humorous reaction I get from the players as they chop them to pieces. wait, what about the evil boss who has magic items? "hey guys the mana battery wizard just cast a 10 ST aid on himself, how are we going to get past that to do real damage to him?" "Ummm, wait 2 turns...." "hey at least he aint throwing fireballs at us" "why didn't he summon a dragon?" "He will dummy, so hurry up and shoot him and maybe we can get rid of some before he uses it." |
03-24-2021, 09:19 PM | #39 |
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: New England
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Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue
After having had the benefit of many points of view, I've been able to come up with a visualization that satisfies me with its illustration of why fatigue might be chalked up to Aided ST while wounds would not be. My thinking:
Aided ST is like fuel which one burns with fatigue. The Aid spell temporarily expands the tank and fills it with a quantity of fuel. If one has burnt the amount of Aided fuel or less when the spell wears expires, their fuel level would be the same as it was before Aid was cast. Wounds, however, do not burn fuel. Instead, wounds can be thought of as fuel lost due to holes punctured into the tank which drain the fuel down to their level. If someone whose ST has been increased with Aid is wounded during the duration of the spell, the fuel is drained down to the level of the hole. But, when the spell expires, the extra fuel that was put in the tank, having not been burned for fatigue, disappears, and leaves the fuel level lower than the hole in the tank. If the hole was at a point on the tank at or below the level that determines a volume no greater than the quantity of fuel provided by the Aid spell, the tank will be empty when the fuel disappears upon the spell's expiration and the subject dies. So, with this conceptualization as a guide, I'd let mundane fatigue (but not wounds) draw from Aided ST. |
03-24-2021, 10:44 PM | #40 |
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Boston area
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Re: Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue
Man, that's an analogy.
But there's no gasoline on Cidri, so I don't think it works. I haven't totally decided which way to go on this, to be honest. Most people are settled that Aid counts for fatigue or at least some kinds of fatigue but not damage. I can see the reasoning and I can see the game balance argument. I don't really have a good principle for distinguishing the two however. But this analogy isn't too bad. Might succumb to peer pressure and accept the prevailing view. After all, all the cool kids don't subtract wounds. I want to be cool. And, on the offhand some player starts abusing Aid, I'll have a good story why they can't do it. It's like gasoline, see... All of this consternation just because someone asked about the Death Spell. |
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buffs, fatigue, magic, strength, wizards |
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