[RAW] Multiple First-Aid's Treating Shock

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by MrFix

I agree, but the issue is that what gurps calls treating shock is unrelated to IRL shock OR Gurps shock. Hence first post asking not to get caught up on gurps naming for the maneuver.

So OK if we keep it to the system intent than I refer back to my earlier post about the in game system repercussions for allowing repeated checks and repeated HPs being recovered in 20min or 10min intervals.

Now if your position is all that does is point to other recovering times from other sources being too slow. Than OK but what do you want for your game? If you want d6 HP per 10 mins at TL8 then cool go for it.

Originally Posted by MrFix

No part of treating shock irl can turn major wound into fully treated scab that lets you get right back into a gunfight.

Well like I posted earlier here's were we get into what exactly lost and regained HPs are. Like I said I think a useful definition is that they are really just a way of tracking how close or far you are from bad things happening (it's just GURPS has more than the usual "you die when you run out", as an option for those bad things). IMO another example of a rule that supports this is the "last wounds" rule, which make the point that not every HP lost are equal in overall effect.

So in the case of recovering "shock" (in GURPS terms) the amount of HP you recover in 10 or 20 mins successful treatment is obviously not flesh knitting back together, organs recovering functionally lost due to trauma. It's a measure of how much further away you got from bad things happening.

It is after all an abstraction, super realistic wound care would not make a very fun RPG system, (HPs are themselves an abstraction, GURPS is a HP system that does more than most HP systems to recognise that and gives gameably realistic work arounds)

[AlexanderHowl]

Originally Posted by MrFix

Interesting. At what point does first aid refresh in your games? It has to at some point, or is it once per mortal life?

First Aid is possible per bandaging attempt (or injurious event). So, you could have someone take 11 HP worth of damage during a battle at 9 am and then get First Aid, take 8 HP of damage during a battle at 1 pm and then get First Aid, and take 14 HP of damage during a battle at 5 pm and then get First Aid. Of course, they are in pretty bad shape by then, but the bandages are at least stopping the bleeding.

In my mind, damage rolled represents physical trauma plus physiological shock, which is why you 'recover' HP during bandaging and/or First Aid. Before TL6, bandaging is probably more important than treating shock though, as bleeding out is a major concern for cutting, impaling, and piercing injuries (and major burning and corrosive wounds). A person who takes 14 HP of piercing damage from two wounds could easily bleed out within a half hour if no one starts bandaging them (while one bandaging and/or First Aid attempt treats all wounds after a battle, each wound bleeds separately).

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

First Aid is possible per bandaging attempt (or injurious event). So, you could have someone take 11 HP worth of damage during a battle at 9 am and then get First Aid, take 8 HP of damage during a battle at 1 pm and then get First Aid, and take 14 HP of damage during a battle at 5 pm and then get First Aid. Of course, they are in pretty bad shape by then, but the bandages are at least stopping the bleeding.
...

Ah OK I think I misunderstood what you were saying, sorry. Yep I agree with that

Edit: no wait, are you saying you only allow one attempt or one sucess per injurious event?

[AlexanderHowl]

One attempt after bandaging per injurious event.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

One attempt after bandaging per injurious event.

OK, cool, I don't agree with that (see previous posts) sorry for any confusion.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by MrFix

Non-lasting aka temporary crippling injury disappears when patient's HP is fully restored.

Yes, it does, and I didn't say otherwise. But a broken bone, for example, is lasting crippling injury and needs surgery (which means that bonesetting is surgery).

[MrFix]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

First Aid is possible per bandaging attempt (or injurious event). So, you could have someone take 11 HP worth of damage during a battle at 9 am and then get First Aid, take 8 HP of damage during a battle at 1 pm and then get First Aid, and take 14 HP of damage during a battle at 5 pm and then get First Aid. Of course, they are in pretty bad shape by then, but the bandages are at least stopping the bleeding.

In my mind, damage rolled represents physical trauma plus physiological shock, which is why you 'recover' HP during bandaging and/or First Aid. Before TL6, bandaging is probably more important than treating shock though, as bleeding out is a major concern for cutting, impaling, and piercing injuries (and major burning and corrosive wounds). A person who takes 14 HP of piercing damage from two wounds could easily bleed out within a half hour if no one starts bandaging them (while one bandaging and/or First Aid attempt treats all wounds after a battle, each wound bleeds separately).

This certainly has the potential to allow a person to exit a fight with 1/10 HP, first aid himself to 5/10 HP, then get shanked again for 2 HP and then first aid himself to 9/10 HP. In effect being shanked contributed to his rapid wound recuperation, which honestly sounds even more suspicious than just spending an hour trying first-aid multiple times.

... Unless you keep track of each wound and HP it depleted separately, and then limit first aid HP gains by HP lost to one specific wound, which is certainly a house rule and kind of book-keepy.

[AlexanderHowl]

You cannot recover more HP with a First Aid attempt than the injuries from the incident that you are treating. If the shock has already taken place from the previous incident, First Aid does not let you go back in time and treat it. Otherwise, you would have people repeatedly stabbing themselves with pencils to deal in 1 HP damage so they could heal themselves up to full HP.

[corwyn]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

You cannot recover more HP with a First Aid attempt than the injuries from the incident that you are treating. If the shock has already taken place from the previous incident, First Aid does not let you go back in time and treat it. Otherwise, you would have people repeatedly stabbing themselves with pencils to deal in 1 HP damage so they could heal themselves up to full HP.

I'd love for the rules to say that but I don't think they do. I just re-read the First Aid rules in Basic and the only thing it says about time is with respect to Bleeding rules. It makes sense though and I've always done it that way. Does it say somewhere else?

3e First Aid does say with respect to simple bandaging that it gives back max 1 per fight.

[AlexanderHowl]

I think that it is just a reflection of reality. Now, if someone wants to run a silly campaign where people can heal someone from -4×HP to full HP through repeatedly stabbing them with a pencil, all power to them, it is their game. In my games though, I will continue to tell my players 'no' and, if they attempt to continue to argue the point, their characters will not be among the living for long.